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<blockquote data-quote="Primitive Screwhead" data-source="post: 3238748" data-attributes="member: 20805">Yea, the frog at 200' is a bit odd.&nbsp;My initial thought of an effective range modifier might still work, it combines both the penalty to range and accounts for the difficulty in seeing creatures of smaller sizes. Perhaps change Table 1 as follows:Creatures larger than medium are treated as if they are closer than they actually are, while smaller creatures are treated as if they are farther away.Table 1: Creature Size and Effective Sight Ranges[Code]Size&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Effective Range MOD+&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; additional +2Fine&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +8Diminutive&nbsp; &nbsp; +6Tiny&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +4Small&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +2Medium&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +0Large&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -2Huge&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -4Gargantuan&nbsp; &nbsp; -6Colossal&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -8Titanic&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -10+&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; additional -2[/code]Example 1, A wizards Frog familiar is hopping along 150' down a straight road. Normally that is the first range increment and the Spot check suffers a -2 penalty. Since the Frog is Diminutive it is treated as if it were 6 more ranges away, in the 7th range increment. The Spot check suffers a -14. If it was a moonlit night, max ranges of 6, the frog would be out of sight.Example 2, A Gargantuan Dragon is resting on a slight rise, scanning a vast plain for a wandering snack. He could spot a Fighter approaching from 1,000' with a -20 to his Spot check {10th range increment}. That fighter, on the other hand, could see the Dragon from 1,600' away with the same penalty. {16th range increment}. Given that the Very Old Red up there has a +37 to Spot, it might be a good idea to run away <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Had the Fighter been riding a Horse {Large} and creating a dust could {+3 sizes} he would effectively be Collosal sized and the Dragon could spot the dust cloud from 1,800' away, still at -20 to spot...time for an appetite increasing chase!Other thoughts:&nbsp; Feats, spells, and abilities to affect this:&nbsp;&nbsp; Lowlight vision adds 4 range increments when vision is limited by darkness&nbsp;&nbsp; Eagle Eye spell treats everything as being 4 increments closer&nbsp;&nbsp; ...etc...Hide skill interaction: Ditch the modifiers to the Hide skill based on size, instead use the range modifer from Table 1 above. A Hide check provides a circumstance bonus to all opponents Spot equal to your check - 15. This means its really easy for Fine critters to hide..IMHO not a bad thing. They would start out at an effective 9th range increment with a -18 to the opponents Spot, slighty better off than Cores +16 to Hide.&nbsp;Final thought:&nbsp; Groups of people: 4 of a similarly sized critter in groups are treated as one size larger. Groups of groups are treated in the same way. In this fashion a 80 man army is the same as 20 large critters, or 5 Huge critters, or 1 Gargantuan critter. Dust clouds raised by groups increase the modifer by one for each grouping done. In this case the Dust cloud would provide a +6 modifier. The end result is a Dust Cloud that can be seen 3,000'&nbsp; away..&nbsp;Which is only half a mile away.. hmm..something not quite right with that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Primitive Screwhead, post: 3238748, member: 20805"] Yea, the frog at 200' is a bit odd. My initial thought of an effective range modifier might still work, it combines both the penalty to range and accounts for the difficulty in seeing creatures of smaller sizes. Perhaps change Table 1 as follows: Creatures larger than medium are treated as if they are closer than they actually are, while smaller creatures are treated as if they are farther away. Table 1: Creature Size and Effective Sight Ranges [Code] Size Effective Range MOD + additional +2 Fine +8 Diminutive +6 Tiny +4 Small +2 Medium +0 Large -2 Huge -4 Gargantuan -6 Colossal -8 Titanic -10 + additional -2 [/code] Example 1, A wizards Frog familiar is hopping along 150' down a straight road. Normally that is the first range increment and the Spot check suffers a -2 penalty. Since the Frog is Diminutive it is treated as if it were 6 more ranges away, in the 7th range increment. The Spot check suffers a -14. If it was a moonlit night, max ranges of 6, the frog would be out of sight. Example 2, A Gargantuan Dragon is resting on a slight rise, scanning a vast plain for a wandering snack. He could spot a Fighter approaching from 1,000' with a -20 to his Spot check {10th range increment}. That fighter, on the other hand, could see the Dragon from 1,600' away with the same penalty. {16th range increment}. Given that the Very Old Red up there has a +37 to Spot, it might be a good idea to run away :) Had the Fighter been riding a Horse {Large} and creating a dust could {+3 sizes} he would effectively be Collosal sized and the Dragon could spot the dust cloud from 1,800' away, still at -20 to spot...time for an appetite increasing chase! Other thoughts: Feats, spells, and abilities to affect this: Lowlight vision adds 4 range increments when vision is limited by darkness Eagle Eye spell treats everything as being 4 increments closer ...etc... Hide skill interaction: Ditch the modifiers to the Hide skill based on size, instead use the range modifer from Table 1 above. A Hide check provides a circumstance bonus to all opponents Spot equal to your check - 15. This means its really easy for Fine critters to hide..IMHO not a bad thing. They would start out at an effective 9th range increment with a -18 to the opponents Spot, slighty better off than Cores +16 to Hide. Final thought: Groups of people: 4 of a similarly sized critter in groups are treated as one size larger. Groups of groups are treated in the same way. In this fashion a 80 man army is the same as 20 large critters, or 5 Huge critters, or 1 Gargantuan critter. Dust clouds raised by groups increase the modifer by one for each grouping done. In this case the Dust cloud would provide a +6 modifier. The end result is a Dust Cloud that can be seen 3,000' away.. Which is only half a mile away.. hmm..something not quite right with that. [/QUOTE]

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