Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Xetheral" data-source="post: 9423506" data-attributes="member: 6802765">There have been a lot of issues with Hiding raised so far in this thread. To summarize the ones that seem most salient to me:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Because the the Hide action is based exclusively on the Invisible condition, it no longer does anything related to being unheard. Unless there is a separate action for that, the Hide action is pretty useless for remaining unnoticed.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Concealed benefit of the Invisible condition is horribly written. As-is, it isn't actually a benefit--every creature everywhere (and their equipment and held items) already are immune to effects that require the target to be seen unless they can somehow be seen. It's possible to give this benefit functionality by making the word "somehow" do a lot of work, but at that point you're effectively just rewriting the benefit anyway. What it is probably supposed to mean and should have said was: "Concealed You and your equipment and held items cannot ordinarily be seen. Creatures with a special sense allowing them to see invisible creatures can still see you if you are in range of that special sense."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If the rules allow creatures who take the Hide action to lose heavy obscurement/full cover/three-quarters cover while maintaining the invisible condition, that's highly problematic, as has been discussed at length in this thread. I would additionally add that falling unconscious is not among the listed effects that cause the Invisible condition granted by the Hide action to end, and allies finding you won't end the condition either. Hopefully you didn't want to be healed....</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Conversely, if the rules do not allow creatures who take the Hide action to lose heavy obscurement/full cover/three-quarters cover without losing the invisible condition, then the Hide action merely makes one unseen while in heavy obscurement/full cover/three-quarters cover. Note that this is useless to creatures in heavy obscurement or full cover--they were unseen already, and the Hide action doesn't help one become or remain unheard. So under this reading the Hide action only benefits creatures in three-quarters cover who would otherwise been seen if they don't hide. That's shockingly limited in scope.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Invisibile condition is binary--either you have it or you don't. This is problematic because the Hide action is dependent on heavy obscurement/full cover/three-quarters cover, each of which one can have in relation in some enemies but not all enemies. (This is ameliorated somewhat by the requirement that you be out of LOS to all enemies, but there are still weird edge cases.) Additionally, any enemy finding you is enough to make you lose the Invisible condition granted by the Hide action, even if the enemy who found you is unwilling or unable to communicate that they found you to anyone else. (To emphasize just how ridiculous this is, imagine if the enemy who "finds you" is stuck on the ethereal plane.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The dependence on what "enemies" can see in order to take the Hide action and on whether "enemies" find you for purposes of ending the Invisible condition granted by the Hide action has bizarre effects in relation to allies and what they can see. For example, if a character is behind full cover with their allies and takes the Hide action, they somehow disappear from their allies' sight and can no longer be healed or buffed by most effects, even though they're doing nothing to become or stay unseen by their allies.</li> </ol></blockquote>

Verification