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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 9425226" data-attributes="member: 6932123">Looking at the text of the Invisible condition again, I see that the "can somehow see you" phrase helps in the framing of hiding vs spells, where being hidden may or may not, at any given point in time, mean an enemy can actually see you. (IE: This is separate from using See Invisible to "somehow" see you).Basically, if we accept that the Invisible condition is retained even when you're in the open (for example, hiding in a crowd), the ability to target you based on sight does not have to involve having found you. If you are hidden in a crowd, the guard may not have found you, and can't identify you in particular, but there are spells that target people in an area that you can see — and despite being "Invisible", you can still be physically seen, and thus affected by such a spell, even if only due to randomly picking people out of the crowd.This lends weight to the consideration that the Invisible condition can still apply even when you can be physically seen.  At the same time, hiding can also be done such that you can't be physically seen, in which case you can't be targeted.Basically, having the Invisible condition granted through Hiding means you may or may not be physically seen at any given time, and this can change from moment to moment.  The "can somehow see you" phrasing means you have to evaluate whether you can be physically (or via some alternate sense) seen for the purpose of certain actions.However, that also applies to the third section, where you may or may not get advantage on attack rolls (or disadvantage attack rolls against you) based on whether you can somehow be seen.So, going back to the guard at the gate scenario: If you walk up to him while having the Invisible condition, you are still physically visible, which means he can "somehow see you". That means you do not get the benefits on attack rolls or being targeted by spells, though you retain the advantage on initiative. On the other hand, if you snuck up behind him (or walked past him and then turned around and attacked from behind), he would not see you, and you regain those roll advantages and targeting restrictions.Being Invisible in that scenario is the "don't notice me" type of invisibility, which meshes with the "awareness" aspect that I detailed in my post about "find".It also means that the See Invisible spell doesn't matter with respect to the Invisibility granted by Hiding. You'd still need line of sight to see someone, and if you have line of sight, the Invisible (Hidden) target can "somehow be seen", so adding See Invisible on top of that doesn't change anything. See Invisible just makes it so that you can somehow be seen regardless of secondary effects which may prevent that, such as the transparency effect of the Invisibility spell, but not things like total cover.It's taken a bit to really fit everything together, but it's really making sense now, as written.</blockquote>

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