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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 9425740" data-attributes="member: 6932123">Going further on the "somehow be seen" and "find" rabbit trails.A pair of burglars — a man and a woman — break into a rich manor and escape with some jewels, but unfortunately not without setting off the alarm. Security is chasing after them, though they haven't seen the actual burglars yet.The burglars run, round a corner in a park, and are desperately trying to find a way to hide. A little scenario seen in fiction pops into one of their heads, and they start making out on a bench, pretending to be a couple on a date.Security rounds the corner looking for the burglars, but only see a couple making out on a park bench. Their Search (Perception) check fails to beat the burglars' Hide (Stealth) check, so the guards fail to "find" them (even though they can clearly "see" them), and continue running down the road.Their Hide attempt gave them the Invisible status. They could still be physically seen, and thus did not gain any of the benefits that don't work if you can "somehow be seen", but since the guards didn't succeed on the Perception check, they were not "found". They could be physically seen, but were not "seen" as the people the guards were looking for.-I also want to consider the Search action vs passive perception. Going back to the combat scenario, when can an enemy "find" you? What happens when you break cover after Hiding?If the enemy must Search, then obviously that can only be an option on the enemy's turn, and you therefore cannot be found during movement on your turn, only when the enemy takes its turn. This leads to the idea that ending your turn in cover preserves your hidden status, even if you broke cover during your turn.But what about passive perception? Well, we don't have the new rules on that, so I have to speculate a bit here. We basically have two scenarios:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">"Finding" someone must be done on your turn, regardless, so even if you use passive perception, the rogue won't be found by breaking cover and then finding cover.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Passive perception can function off-turn, as general awareness of what's going on around you.</li> </ol>In either case, you have to consider whether passive perception is sufficient for finding someone who used Hide.  We know the DC is based on the Stealth check, and we know that that check had to be at least 15. At low levels most creatures are not going to beat that.But that brings back the issue of, if you Hide, and none of the creatures around you have a passive perception high enough to beat your Stealth check, and they do not actively Search for you, does that mean you can just walk around the battlefield without a care? That seems counterintuitive for most common scenarios.I would argue that in this scenario, the enemy creatures' passive perception is not for finding "you" in particular, but for recognizing "an enemy" in the combat space. Are you still wearing armor? Still have a weapon readied? Clearly visible? I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that as an enemy.At the very least I would give advantage on their passive perception (+5 to the score) if you were not making any effort to hide your status as an enemy. Even the most basic low-level enemies should be breaking a 15 for spotting you then. Might even just make it automatic pass in that scenario. (Now if you shucked your armor and hid your weapons, it might be a different matter. Consider a thief showing up as a bystander near a fight he had previously been a part of.)That still doesn't address whether it happens off-turn (when the Invisible person moves out of cover), or on the creature's turn. And after some thought, I don't think that's possible to judge without the DMG rules.Until we get those rules, though, I'd personally consider it something that happens on the creature's turn, and thus breaking cover does not invalidate being Invisible as long as you return to cover by the end of your turn. I could easily see someone running it as happening off-turn, though, and I don't think either option is really "wrong".-But... That bit about being found as an enemy does bring up another idea. What happens if the druid hides, then Wild Shapes into a squirrel, and just sits up in a tree before following the goblins back to their camp when they retreat?The druid is no longer clearly identifiable as an enemy, so would remain Invisible to the goblins for however long the scouting took, even if the squirrel is still physically visible.  Again, seen, but not found. In fact, even harder to find because of the druid's new form.This in turn leads to an obvious connection to the disguise skill. I touched on it a bit in earlier posts, but using a disguise seems like an obvious way to build in better results on the Hide check. As long as you're not trying to impersonate someone in particular, everything about the Invisible condition would seem to still apply just as well.Disguise, <s>Performance</s> Deception (the burglar's makeout session), Stealth, Invisibility — they all lead to this condition that seems to encompass them in a broadly similar way. Don't notice me, don't recognize me, don't see me, don't find me. The methodology is different for all of them, but the end result can all be wrapped up in this one common mechanic, and thus one condition — Invisible.</blockquote>

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