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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Xetheral" data-source="post: 9428022" data-attributes="member: 6802765">Would you mind sharing what you consider to be the clear meaning of the rules regarding the contested aspects of the skill? Specifically:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Can a character with the Invisible condition be automatically seen by an observer with normal senses who gains line of sight to the Invisible character? (Thus ending the Invisible condition if the observer is an enemy and the condition was provided by the Hide action, but not ending the condition if the observer is not an enemy or the condition was provided by the Invisibility spell.) If yes, what benefits do you see a hiding character as gaining from the Invisible condition that they didn't already have by being unseen by enemies (as required to be able to take the Hide action in the first place)? If no, what is required for an enemy to count as "finding" the hidden character? If your answer depends on the source of the Invisible condition, is there particular rules text that leads you to conclude that the visual appearance of the Invisible condition varies based on the source of the effect?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Do you allow characters to have the Invisible condition with respect to some creatures but not with respect to other creatures? If yes, is there particular rules text that leads you to conclude that it's possible to both have a condition and not have a condition simultaneously? If no, how do you adjudicate a situation where an enemy finds a character who gained the Invisible condition by taking the Hide action (which would normally end the Invisible condition), but who cannot (or chooses not to) communicate that they found the hiding character to anyone else?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Does a character who takes the Hide action know if they have successfully obtained the Invisible condition? If yes, what (if anything) prevents a character who fails to obtain the Invisible condition from continuing to take the Hide action until they succeed, and what (if anything) prevents a character from learning that they are in line of sight to an enemy if they fail to obtain the Invisible condition despite succeeding the DC 15 check? If no, what (if anything) prevents a character from learning (whether intentionally or via happenstance) via non-enemies whether they have obtained the Invisible condition?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">What (if anything) do you do to make hiding a viable part of gameplay for low-level characters and/or parties who can't consistently make the DC 15 check required to succeed at the Hide action?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">How do you handle situations where an unseen character wants to become or remain unheard by an enemy? If you view becoming/remaining unheard as part of the Hide action, what rules text leads you to this result?</li> </ol>Personally, I don't see any way to clearly resolve these questions from the rules text we've seen so far. In particular, I see #1, #2, and #3 as leading to absurd results in ordinary gameplay no matter which way I answer the questions, even when everyone is playing entirely in good faith.As a DM, I am not going to permit absurd results in play. If there is an interpretation of a rule that avoids absurd results, I'm going to go with that one. If all interpretations of a rule lead to absurd results, as appears to be the case here, I'm not going to use that rule. If you've got an interpretation that doesn't lead to absurd results, I want to hear it. (But if you're going beyond the text and simple inferences to do so, I'll probably just stick with my houserule to the 2014 hiding rules-- there's no need for me to switch if I'd just have to make new houserules anyway.)</blockquote>

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