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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jonrog1" data-source="post: 238002" data-attributes="member: 189">Okay, now:1.) Is it as simple as or more simple than the existing mechanic?I think so.  I make a roll, you beat it.  Then you make a roll, and I beat it.  One roll accomplishes two things -- checks for the validity of the attack and sets the difficulty of the response.2.) Does the tweak break other mechanics?Nope.  Any other attacks depending on Trip -- Overrun for example -- still function the same.  You can integrate this version of the Trip melee attack into anyplace you can do an attack.  End of a charge, for example.  All the size bonuses, etc. still apply.3.) Does it just seem to make more sense situationally?I think so.  Let's run through some game moments, see if the results make sense.A.) A big lummox tries to trip our nimble thief Alexander.  The lummox connects with his attack, sticking out a leg or shoving Alex -- after all, Lummox is a professional bone breaker (fighter class).  Alex makes his Reflex save, twisting out of the way, and tries to trip Lummox back ...Now here is where some of you may be thinking "Hey, Alex has an unfair advantage, we can't have little weenies tripping our fighters left and right."  But classes with high Reflex saves have LOW attack bonuses.  So odds are, unless Alex is attacking with a weapon specifically made to trip, he won't make his melee touch attack, and he won't make a hard enough contact with Lummox to trip him.  And even if he does get lucky, he GOT LUCKY. If some fighter has high Dex and high Reflex Saves, then this is a specialized character who's followed this specialized attack path, and is about to be rewarded for his efforts.B.) Alex decides to try to trip Bob the Unusually Light on His Feet.  Bob is so nicknamed by the other fighters because of his high Dex and the level of rogue he took.  Alex somehow makes his melee touch attack.  (He can't take advantage of his own high Dex, really, as most weapons you can take Weapon Finess with aren't big enough to be used in the attack.  Got to be larger than the opponent to be used.)  Unlike Lummox, Bob is rewarded for taking a few ballet lessons with the Rogue's Guild, and by virtue of his higher Reflex Save is not brought down.  When he kicks back at Alex, Bob connects (he is a fighter), but Alex is more likely not to be brought down by his attempt.C.) Jack the Druid wields his quarterstaff.  He starts whacking Alex's shins with it in melee (making his touch attack), and because the thing's so cumbersome (large size), Alex has to consciously avoid falling over it.This is just where I am now.  There are some variations to consider -- what I need to know is, which one makes the most sense to you in D&D?Variations:a.) Trip mechanic as is, but make sure the counter-trip involves another melee touch attack (Spycraft rules).  This alone makes a huge amount of sense, and I'll use it as the base for all future variations of "as is."b.) Trip mechanic as is, just add the "Larger than opponents" weapon size tweak.c.) Trip check like grapple check.  AoO, melee touch, opposed checks of (BASE ATTACK + STRENGTH OR DEX + SIZE), then countertrip mechanism basically the same without the AoO.  That is, you basically opened yourself up with your own attack.d.)Use the Melee Attack/Trip DC mechanic, but your opponent trips you if he beats the save by more than 5 or 10.  This could also work with the "Opposed Trip Check" variation.  Might bring about the same feelign I get now, though -- odds are, if I fail the trip check, than no matter what feat I took, I'm goinbg down on the countertrip.e.)Just add an AoO to any of the above.f.) Leave the mechanism "as is", but fix the feats.Phew.  All right, let the crunchy game goodness begin!</blockquote>

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