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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jonrog1" data-source="post: 238717" data-attributes="member: 189">Ah, sorry, should have made that clear.  As per the first rule of tweaking, all the standard modifiers -- size, stability, etc. apply to this mechanic.  You can only trip opponets up to one size larger than you, I believe.  Or that's what it should be.The High level BAB-as-save problem is one I should have spotted -- I was busy mucking about with low-level guys.  But as Corwin mentions, the mechanic AS IS in the PHB lets a 1st level orc go shoving 15th level Elves about with impunity.For my version, I'm locking in on "Any weapon built for tripping, or any weapon one-size or larger than the opponent's size category."  It makes sense that I can trip you with a quarterstaff, but not a Giant.  Suggestions?And I'm liking Corwin's mutant grapple check.  Now, how do we make it as close to the grapple check mechanic as possible for system elegance?How about:1.) Melee touch attack (AoO or no AoO, let's let that sit for a moment)2.) "Trip Check" -- BAB + (STR or DEX, your choice) + WEAPON MODS + SIZE MOD, applying all penalties.3.) If you win, then you trip your opponent.  If you lose, he stays up and gets to trip you back.  How?Three options come to mind --3a) He has to cycle through the touch attack/trip check again.3b.)He just makes the opposed trip check with no touch attack -- you"opened yourself up" when you went for the trip.3c.) He gets to make the trip check if he beat the first one by 5 or more (or 10 or more, you get the idea.)  The concept here is that you only put yourself off balance if you REALLY blew your trip attempt, or tried to trip someone WAY out of your class.Comments, criticisms?</blockquote>

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