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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 3593528" data-attributes="member: 5889">Ah the classic tumble change. My premise is the original tumble ability is fine as is, and I'll explain why in great detail.For mechanical purpose, tumble does one main thing, it avoids AOOs. That's all it does, all of those precious skill points are going towards this one single goal. Now, in your rule, you are opposing tumble with an attack roll. Here's the thing, attack rolls are useful for many things. You can kill things with them, disarm things, etc. There are lots of useful uses for attack rolls.So why should a +1 to attack rolls be just as good as 1 whole rank in tumble? I am sacrificing a resource (a skill point) for this specific purpose, and your +1 to attack rolls completely negates that, plus gets to do all of those other nifty things like killing people!!Tumble is a powerful skill, but its also a very specific skill. It should not be undermined by a general ability, which is what your rule causes to happen.Further, you created the rule because you felt tumble was too easy, and the rogue character had no incentive to put more ranks in it. I'll handle the first part...first<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Tumble is too easy? Once a rogue can make DC 15's consistently he can tumble around one guy all day long, no matter how skilled. This may seem outrageous to you, but think of it another way. As levels increase, a few things happen. Monsters tend to hit more often (bigger attack bonuses) and they tend to do more raw damage. If your 2nd level rogue misses a tumble check, the AOO will have a decent chance of hitting him, and probably do a decent amount of damage. At high levels, that AOOs will almost certainly hit him, and do a huge amount of damage.Something also happens as levels get higher, the rogue starts to fall farther behind the fighter in defenses. The rogue only has a d6 hitdice, and normally doesn't have the big AC that the fighter does. So what if the fighter has to take an AOO when moving in, he's big and beefy and can take it. The rogue (with his d6 hitdice and low AC) is consciously deciding to place himself IN MELEE with the big bad monster, meaning he may be exposing himself to a full round attack on the monster's next action. That's a big risk, big enough that the rogue doesn't need to worry about an AOO as well...as a player of a few rogues let me tell you, its already risky enough.So in conclusion, yes tumble becomes automatic at a certain point, but that's okay. The rogue (and the monk) have plenty of other things to worry about. They don't get the defenses of barbs and fighters, so don't begrudge them the one level of defense they do have.Now to the second part, the issue of the rogue no longer having to place ranks in tumble. Guess what, tumble is hardly the only skill that does this. Climb, Balance, Survival are easy other examples. All skills that aren't opposed checks eventually hit the point where you have enough in the skill to stop putting points into them. And that's OKAY!!! God forbid your rogue wants to branch out into other skills<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Further, remember that a DC 15 is not the end all be all of tumble checks. If you want to tumble quickly, that's a +10 to the DC, a DC 25 (nothing to sneeze at). And if you want to tumble past multiple creatures, the DC increases by 2 per creature. So if you need to tumble past 3 creatures, that's a DC 21. If I have a +14 in tumble, that's certainly not automatic.So if your rogue wants to have a +14 in tumble, let him get some other skills and enjoy the benefits of his choice. Once in a while he might need to tumble quickly, or get past several creatures....and he might be worried about that check. And if decides to put more points in it, let him enjoy the benefits of that every so often.In conclusion, the tumble skill really is just fine.</blockquote>

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