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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9229627" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I apologize for not being clear, but some of these... simply aren't the type of challenges I'm talking about. Sure, Arm Wrestling and Wrestling could be best done as Strength checks... but since when does arm wrestling matter? The most I've ever seen it matter was to impress NPCs at low levels and earn a few coin in the bar. It is nice for flavor and atmosphere but little else. While it allows the player to have some spotlight at low levels and some downtime fun, it isn't going to assist in overcoming challenges without the DM explicitly making a powerful enemy willing to stand down if they lose at arm wrestling... which I find kind of silly.Climbing, Swimming and Jumping have been discussed a few times, and as I've pointed out every time, they rarely should involve any checks. In 80% of the cases you should be capable of climbing or swimming with no check, and jumping even with an 8 strength is enough to get on top of a first story house, or clear a 10 ft gap with some assistance. Breaking things is only sort of a strength check. Yes, you can burst ropes and manacles with strength... but you can also break them with weapon attacks or destroy them with cantrips. Perhaps steel chains or manacles would pose a problem, but ropes and nets are explicitly able to be cut and destroyed. And this ability to destroy extends to other objects. Sure, you can bend bars, you can also melt them, or beat them into a bent shape with a hammer. Same with doors, walls, and many other items.Skipping more things that don't really apply to what I was referring to, I will say I do see some in your list that I had not considered, but which do also pose a bit of a problem. I had not considered checks against rockslides, powerful winds, sudden floods and quicksand... well quicksand isn't really a strength challenge, unless it is a truly massive amount of the stuff. But the issue with resisting a rockslide or avoiding being swept away in a current is that those are party wide checks, and you resisting a trap does not truly help the others. Sure, you can assist in digging them out of a rockslide, but if they are swept away by a sudden flood... nothing your strength gives you prevents this unless you have additionally tied everyone together, which requires you to have known about the trap beforehand. And, I also find myself dissatisfied that the only things I can truly acknowledge are good uses for strength in an exploration and skill sense are reactively dealing with traps that specify the need for strength to overcome. To try and end on a more conciliatory note, you are correct that these are all things that can be done with strength, but so are things like carrying logs to build your home, or lifting a cow out of a ravine. But do these tasks truly help with the normal things adventurers encounter, and do they have no other real way to deal with them? I find it troubling, for example, that climbing keeps coming up when climber's kits, grappling hooks, and the rules for climbing all make the addition of strength minimal at best.</blockquote>

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