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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mirrorrorrim" data-source="post: 9231559" data-attributes="member: 7040132">Stop what? I'm not inventing a straw man. I am questioning your very assertion.You are advocating for distilling all movement-based challenges into one ability that the PC is good at, and that realism arguments don't matter. In fact, your suggestion is about making Dexterity more of a Super ability. It seems to me that you want to min/max, pumping Dex, and dumping Str, and in order to ignore RAW penalties for dumping Strength, you advocate for replacing Str with Dex checks. That is literally changing the rules to enable min/maxing. It's also a gamist preference that I think breaks more than it fixes. I am fine with some gamist design, but this is off the mark for me. I don't mean the following as a straw man, but to better explain how I see your position, this is what your argument sounds like to me:"A Sorcerer should not need to invest in Strength and Athletics, or Dexterity and Acrobatics to match the movement abilities of a Fighter or a Rogue in combat, including movement in three dimensions. They are inherently magical, after all." Can a Sorcerer use their Force of Personality to succeed at crossing a challenging 3D battlefield just by rolling a Charisma (Intimidation) check to look impressive doing so?That is how I see your argument. It makes little sense to me. Hand-eye coordination and manual dexterity doesn't help you climb if your level of physical strength makes it hard to do a single pull up. You may succeed, but it is because of your effort (a successful D20 Test) despite your challenges. As an aside, I will say that I do think that Acrobatics as a pure Dexterity skill is a bit of a misnomer, because actual acrobats also have Strength training, which is the real reason why they can jump and climb pretty well. Note that the rules for Acrobatics don't mention anything about climbing or jumping for distance: Acrobatics. Your Dexterity (<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Acrobatics" target="_blank">Acrobatics</a>) check covers your attempt to stay on your feet in a tricky situation, such as when you’re trying to run across a sheet of ice, balance on a tightrope, or stay upright on a rocking ship’s deck. The DM might also call for a Dexterity (<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Acrobatics" target="_blank">Acrobatics</a>) check to see if you can perform acrobatic stunts, including dives, rolls, somersaults, and flips.For me, climbing is a Strength check, but following the RAW variant rule in the PHB, if the battlefield warrants it, like racing up a great pine tree to see who reaches the eagle nest first (with lots of branches and handholds that can be both boons and barriers), I may say make a Strength (Athletics or Acrobatics) check. I won't ask for an Athletics (Str) or an Acrobatics (Dex) check. The Ability is first, not the Skill. Being trained in a Skill can enhance the Ability Check.The rules as written work just fine. You assert they are a bug. I disagree. The people you are debating against are not "unreasonable" or crazy or insane if the rules as written make sense to them.*edited an unintended inflammatory word out.</blockquote>

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