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<blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 6144498" data-attributes="member: 1210"><p>This isn't aimed specifically at shidaku, but his post got me to thinking.</p><p></p><p>What is it with trying to retcon stuff just because? What if someone out there has a campaign that has developed both grey renders and umber hulks in different directions? Why does there seem to be this urge to rewrite decades of D&D lore in a lot of these discussions? (Again, this is about far more than just shidaku's post; the designers and a lot of the discussion seems to treat established D&D lore as completely dispensable.)</p><p></p><p>Take, for example, the talk about slaadi. "Should they be demons or should they be more Lovecraftian?" What's wrong with, even if we EXPAND the lore on something, not DISCARDING the lore about it? They are distinctly NOT demons; making them demons just disrespects all the campaigns that have heavily featured slaadi as forces of Chaos but <em>not</em> evil. </p><p></p><p>A perfect example of how to expand the lore on a monster the right way IMHO: Gibberlings, as (re-)presented in <em>the Gates of Firestorm Peak</em>. The treatment of gibberlings in there didn't throw away or overturn anything; but it expanded the lore on them in fantastic (and fantastically creepy!) ways.</p><p></p><p>A good example of how to do this wrong, in a way that is subtle but potentially campaign-shaking: The switch of orcs from LE to CE in 3e. What if someone's campaign has a huge emphasis on orcs, with a great deal of effort on the dm's part gone into their elaborate system of laws, their military organization, etc? Suddenly the lore on orcs doesn't support that campaign's vision of them. Worse yet, there are a bunch of mechanical bits that need tweaking, rewriting or fixing to be of use in that dm's game. And for what? Because a few designers decided that their vision of orcs fit CE better. </p><p></p><p>That's a minor issue, by the way, compared to the kind of wholesale rewrite that, say, titans got in 4e. What if my campaign featured "classical" Titans as major npcs or mythological figures? Suddenly a TON of D&D lore is at odds with my game (at least with 4e lore)- titans aren't elemental; they aren't necessarily evil; I don't have viable stats for them; I have a good half-dozen or more monsters I can't use in the books; etc. </p><p></p><p>I think D&D needs to respect its precedents, recognize that, yes, there ARE 20-year-long campaigns running (and those groups are ones where someone buys every book released for the system), and not change things for the sake of change. Get rid of umber hulks? No. No, never. They have played a central part in a TON of D&D over the years (see especially Spelljammer), and even if none of those settings, adventures or whatever move you, they all move SOMEONE. The game should <em>develop and expand</em> lore without <em>disrespecting and discarding</em> it, IMHO.</p><p></p><p>Just food for thought; obviously, YMMV.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="the Jester, post: 6144498, member: 1210"] This isn't aimed specifically at shidaku, but his post got me to thinking. What is it with trying to retcon stuff just because? What if someone out there has a campaign that has developed both grey renders and umber hulks in different directions? Why does there seem to be this urge to rewrite decades of D&D lore in a lot of these discussions? (Again, this is about far more than just shidaku's post; the designers and a lot of the discussion seems to treat established D&D lore as completely dispensable.) Take, for example, the talk about slaadi. "Should they be demons or should they be more Lovecraftian?" What's wrong with, even if we EXPAND the lore on something, not DISCARDING the lore about it? They are distinctly NOT demons; making them demons just disrespects all the campaigns that have heavily featured slaadi as forces of Chaos but [i]not[/i] evil. A perfect example of how to expand the lore on a monster the right way IMHO: Gibberlings, as (re-)presented in [i]the Gates of Firestorm Peak[/i]. The treatment of gibberlings in there didn't throw away or overturn anything; but it expanded the lore on them in fantastic (and fantastically creepy!) ways. A good example of how to do this wrong, in a way that is subtle but potentially campaign-shaking: The switch of orcs from LE to CE in 3e. What if someone's campaign has a huge emphasis on orcs, with a great deal of effort on the dm's part gone into their elaborate system of laws, their military organization, etc? Suddenly the lore on orcs doesn't support that campaign's vision of them. Worse yet, there are a bunch of mechanical bits that need tweaking, rewriting or fixing to be of use in that dm's game. And for what? Because a few designers decided that their vision of orcs fit CE better. That's a minor issue, by the way, compared to the kind of wholesale rewrite that, say, titans got in 4e. What if my campaign featured "classical" Titans as major npcs or mythological figures? Suddenly a TON of D&D lore is at odds with my game (at least with 4e lore)- titans aren't elemental; they aren't necessarily evil; I don't have viable stats for them; I have a good half-dozen or more monsters I can't use in the books; etc. I think D&D needs to respect its precedents, recognize that, yes, there ARE 20-year-long campaigns running (and those groups are ones where someone buys every book released for the system), and not change things for the sake of change. Get rid of umber hulks? No. No, never. They have played a central part in a TON of D&D over the years (see especially Spelljammer), and even if none of those settings, adventures or whatever move you, they all move SOMEONE. The game should [i]develop and expand[/i] lore without [i]disrespecting and discarding[/i] it, IMHO. Just food for thought; obviously, YMMV. [/QUOTE]
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