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<blockquote data-quote="Enrahim2" data-source="post: 8951352" data-attributes="member: 7039850"><p>Hm, what you write indicate that we have had wildly differing experiences with Druids. It might very well be true that at your table my proposal would indeed not have given any added value, as the druids already actively exploit existing wildlife, and the DM is quite lenient with it. Meanwhile the druids I have played with has at best used their powers to pacify or interrogate local wildlife, while relying on their shapechange, summons and/or animal companion for anything proactive.</p><p></p><p>And it might be that this highlight the basic problem with fixing the utility side of Druid. My idea was to take something the druid is supposed to be good at, and make sure that this is enhanced beyond what a simple spell does. This in similar vein as the Bard - they have plenty of buffs; but their inspiration dice are still quite unique in what it does. Sure you got guidance, but inspiration gives a bigger boost that also stacks.</p><p></p><p>Looking at what druids are associated with the main things that come to mind is tankiness, versatility, connection with nature and battlefield control. Tankiness is the moon druid discussion. Versitality is already sort of covered by spells, but was what wild shape previously supercharged. Hence the natural ideas here on the utility side of wild shape has been revolving around how to restore versatility to wild shape. The problem I see is that all these ideas appear to introduce a lot of complexity while still falling way short of what 5ed potentially has. Hence the core of my idea was to see if it migth be possible to radically shange wildshape to support one of the other areas associated with the Druid. I struggle to see how wild shape can be effectively be worked to become an effective battlefield control. Hence my idea about how it could try to reinforce the nature connection aspect.</p><p></p><p>I realize now from what you are saying that the details of my proposal falls short of what is needed from wild shape, as I do agree that such a prominent class feature should have obvious value above and beyond spells available at the level it is gained at any table. I still think being able to talk to creatures of the same shape as you qualifies as unique due to the added possibilities allowed for with longer term communication, (hours rather than 10 minutes). However I also agree that this alone is not enough to make it "worthwhile". The advantage was as such meant as a way to further boost this feature - but from what you are saying I fully agree that it is too circumstantial; not on in game situations, but on table culture.</p><p></p><p>The problem is as you point out, the druid spell arsenal is already so formidable that it is hard to see how a class feature can significantly increase their command over nature. Similarly it become quite tricky to increase their level of versatility. After all they are a full caster with access to the full primal spell list to chose from every day. It took basically the ability to replicate any thinkable low level transmutation without preparation to give us the added versatility of the 5ed Druid.</p><p></p><p>However it might be OB1's approach might be sufficient? It give 5 different overall uses which is definitely more versatile than the 1 provided by the UA. And it hands it out in a way that passes my acceptable complexity filter (as opposed to the trait shopping list approach).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Enrahim2, post: 8951352, member: 7039850"] Hm, what you write indicate that we have had wildly differing experiences with Druids. It might very well be true that at your table my proposal would indeed not have given any added value, as the druids already actively exploit existing wildlife, and the DM is quite lenient with it. Meanwhile the druids I have played with has at best used their powers to pacify or interrogate local wildlife, while relying on their shapechange, summons and/or animal companion for anything proactive. And it might be that this highlight the basic problem with fixing the utility side of Druid. My idea was to take something the druid is supposed to be good at, and make sure that this is enhanced beyond what a simple spell does. This in similar vein as the Bard - they have plenty of buffs; but their inspiration dice are still quite unique in what it does. Sure you got guidance, but inspiration gives a bigger boost that also stacks. Looking at what druids are associated with the main things that come to mind is tankiness, versatility, connection with nature and battlefield control. Tankiness is the moon druid discussion. Versitality is already sort of covered by spells, but was what wild shape previously supercharged. Hence the natural ideas here on the utility side of wild shape has been revolving around how to restore versatility to wild shape. The problem I see is that all these ideas appear to introduce a lot of complexity while still falling way short of what 5ed potentially has. Hence the core of my idea was to see if it migth be possible to radically shange wildshape to support one of the other areas associated with the Druid. I struggle to see how wild shape can be effectively be worked to become an effective battlefield control. Hence my idea about how it could try to reinforce the nature connection aspect. I realize now from what you are saying that the details of my proposal falls short of what is needed from wild shape, as I do agree that such a prominent class feature should have obvious value above and beyond spells available at the level it is gained at any table. I still think being able to talk to creatures of the same shape as you qualifies as unique due to the added possibilities allowed for with longer term communication, (hours rather than 10 minutes). However I also agree that this alone is not enough to make it "worthwhile". The advantage was as such meant as a way to further boost this feature - but from what you are saying I fully agree that it is too circumstantial; not on in game situations, but on table culture. The problem is as you point out, the druid spell arsenal is already so formidable that it is hard to see how a class feature can significantly increase their command over nature. Similarly it become quite tricky to increase their level of versatility. After all they are a full caster with access to the full primal spell list to chose from every day. It took basically the ability to replicate any thinkable low level transmutation without preparation to give us the added versatility of the 5ed Druid. However it might be OB1's approach might be sufficient? It give 5 different overall uses which is definitely more versatile than the 1 provided by the UA. And it hands it out in a way that passes my acceptable complexity filter (as opposed to the trait shopping list approach). [/QUOTE]
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