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<blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 7127215" data-attributes="member: 5100">I don't typically allow attacks outside actual combat. IMO, that's exactly what &quot;surprised&quot; is about.Generally, I view combat as having an &quot;instigating event&quot;. That could be just meeting up with some orcs and assuming combat is going to happen (normal combat, no surprise) or it could be a hidden archer shooting at you. Whenever that instigating event occurs, initiative is rolled. If there's a chance that one side might not be aware of the instigating event, then surprise is determined*. If archer beats his targets passive perception, for example, he gets the drop on him. Otherwise, something tips the target off -- that could be a glint of sun on the arrowhead, a snapping twig, just plain keen eyes, some sort of gut instinct, or something else that makes narrative sense. Even then, the archer might still win initiative, the target just isn't technically surprised with any special significance that may hold.Regardless, the attack happens after initiative is rolled and within the constraints of the combat structure. I can think of corner cases that might be an exception to this. For example, having a crossbow pointed at someone's head in a hostage situation. I've never had one come up in actual play, though. Even for that example, I'd probably just give advantage on initiative if the crossbowman decided to pull the trigger or allow deception for surprise if someone wanted to get close and try a sudden disarm; stuff that still fell into the combat structure.* I allow options other than just stealth vs. perception for surprise. A cunning assassin might be able to get close using deception, for example. No hard-and-fast rules, I just use what seems appropriate and prefer to encourage players to decide what they want to do, then figure out what rules make sense to apply, rather than starting with the rules as a menu of options.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mercule, post: 7127215, member: 5100"] I don't typically allow attacks outside actual combat. IMO, that's exactly what "surprised" is about. Generally, I view combat as having an "instigating event". That could be just meeting up with some orcs and assuming combat is going to happen (normal combat, no surprise) or it could be a hidden archer shooting at you. Whenever that instigating event occurs, initiative is rolled. If there's a chance that one side might not be aware of the instigating event, then surprise is determined*. If archer beats his targets passive perception, for example, he gets the drop on him. Otherwise, [U]something[/U] tips the target off -- that could be a glint of sun on the arrowhead, a snapping twig, just plain keen eyes, some sort of gut instinct, or something else that makes narrative sense. Even then, the archer might still win initiative, the target just isn't technically surprised with any special significance that may hold. Regardless, the attack happens [U]after[/U] initiative is rolled and within the constraints of the combat structure. I can think of corner cases that might be an exception to this. For example, having a crossbow pointed at someone's head in a hostage situation. I've never had one come up in actual play, though. Even for that example, I'd probably just give advantage on initiative if the crossbowman decided to pull the trigger or allow deception for surprise if someone wanted to get close and try a sudden disarm; stuff that still fell into the combat structure. * I allow options other than just stealth vs. perception for surprise. A cunning assassin might be able to get close using deception, for example. No hard-and-fast rules, I just use what seems appropriate and prefer to encourage players to decide what they want to do, [U]then[/U] figure out what rules make sense to apply, rather than starting with the rules as a menu of options. [/QUOTE]

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