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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8130108" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, I would say there are many people who are going to play for whom the sort of basic straightforward formula at the core of D&D seems perfect to them. They're not all that caught up in motives or sophisticated story ideas. They may be willing to entertain some 'plot hooks' and carry forward on the basis of them, but their focus is on the basic raw 'id' level experience of facing danger and achieving power and wealth, of 'leveling up' and achieving the competitive goals of the game (of which D&D has by far the most developed sense AFAIK). I mean, you could then explore WotC's flavor of 'player motivations', and see how they are basically variations on this theme, or overlay it a bit with some slightly more sophisticated ancillaries (IE you want to explore the fantasy world, but doing so is basically still a process of getting stronger so you can go 'deeper into the dungeon'). And yes, players do evince more sophisticated desires, or conflicting aims, at times. These can lead to some sort of breakdown in the social contract of a game. Say where a given player is more interested in character development (a 'roleplaying agenda') and is thwarted by her fellows desire to just loot the dungeon and be damned with any justifications or doubts about slaughtering orc families (simplistic one, but it comes up often).Traveler definitely envisages use of things like patrons and random encounters, the Psionics Institute, the TAS, etc. as elements to introduce driving 'plot hooks', but it really does lack the 'id' part, to an extent. The problem this game has is really that it is trapped in its fairly hard 'gritty' sci-fi milieu. If you pick up a copy of d6 Space, the 'serial numbers filed off' version of d6 Star Wars, you can see the difference. In that game the dice pool mechanics and the way combat works, plus the mechanics of 'super powers' and how they progress and snowball in effectiveness, makes it a totally different game. In that milieu mythic characters arise to grapple with the fate of worlds, and the rules pretty much support that. It is still, very loosely, a type of sci-fi or sci-fantasy, but it doesn't run into the genre limits that Traveler does. Of course, the d6 system (either version) never really eclipsed Traveler as a sci-fi RPG. I think that may be more because outright fantasy, like D&D, is largely already ensconced in that niche. It has been a pretty popular game, but I did find that it had its own pitfalls. Traveler games can break down from insufficient 'velocity' and sense of 'progression', but d6 games tended to just become gonzo and melt! I guess if you fully go with it and just amp up the gonzo to max, that's fine, but it does put a limit on any given game. Eventually the PCs will just fly off the top of the chart and start flying around killing starships in their underwear. Anyway, d6 isn't any better at explicit narrative than Traveler or D&D, and they all three represent pretty much 'trad' games, albeit you can see glimmers in all of them of what Vince is talking about. I just think that Vince always missed the point that, for 75% or even 90% of gamers, id is enough most of the time.</blockquote>

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