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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LightWarden" data-source="post: 6744655" data-attributes="member: 6803540">Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:Fighters, Paladins, and WardensFighters (weaponmasters)TacticsA lot of your best features come with combat challenge so you might need to adjust for this since you tend to punish adjacent enemies and enemies you have marked.  The good thing is that you have total control over who you mark and don't mark and you can still defend even when not marking.  What you lack for in class features you make up for with a wide selection of powers that will help your allies to punish targets you have stuck next to you.  You have a couple at will forced movement powers and you have a lot of other powers that can slow, immobilize, prone, or force move.  You can do polearm or flail shennanigans as well since you have less trouble qualifying for the needed feats.  Fighters have two main directions they can go that they need to pick from early on: reach weapon (probably glaive, spiked chain, or great spear) or 1-H talent with shield.  A lot of your potential powers require you to be using a shield and a few require a reach weapon and polearm master is a good path to look at.  You can also go with a big 2-H non reach weapon if you want to sacrifice trade some control for damage and their is a little support for dual wielders.If you are going shield consider the phalanx warrior feat, along with the various shield utility powers like Phalanx Leader, Stalwart Guard, and Interposing Shield to protect allies who mark your enemies.Another good fighter trick with multiple defenders is playing a brawler fighter.  A brawler fighter can pin down an enemy very well without ever needing to mark him, which means he can work effectively with ranged punishment or aura defenders.Powers to considerFootwork Lure At will.This lets you move an enemy marked by another defender away from that defender and puts you in between.  This is one of the best fighter at will powers even without another defender in the party, but I would almost always take this in a 2 defender party.Tide of Iron At will. If I wasn't taking Footwork lure, I would be taking this instead.  Push with a shift.Grappling Strike At will. Grapplers can tie up an enemy without marking him.  If you go this route, you will really focus on this.Knockdown Assault At will. At will proning means the enemy will have a hard time getting away without you having to mark it.  At higher levels you can get proning fairly easily from things like flail expertise or world serpents grasp so you might retrain it out later, but for low level fighters it is sometimes a decent choice.Shield Riposte 1 (encounter)Fighters have a couple powers like this that require you to have a shield and punish enemies who attack allies next to you.  You don't get enchantment of expertise bonus, but it targets fortitude.  This pushes with a shift, but it is a reaction power.Glowering ThreatStrong penalty for enemies that attack your allies, but doesn't mark.Get over Here 2 This pulls a marking ally away from an enemy and lets you get next to them.Immediate Vengence 3 This one is only ok.  It doesn't get any enchantment or expertise bonus, but its an interrupt that targets fortitude and is only level 3.  Weakens as an interrupt with some damage when someone attacks a neighboring ally.Reaver's Hook 3 It can shift/pull an enemy off of a marking ally if you are using an axe or pickParry and riposte 3 A reaction to an enemy missing an ally.Hounding Longarm 5 A reach weapon power that lets you punish enemies who at attack your allies at range 2, which is normally something fighters struggle with some.Pinning Smash 5 Fighters not using a reach weapon should consider this.  It immobilizes an enemy as long as it is next to you without you needing to mark it.  Lets allies load up on ranged mark punishment.Knights Challenge 6 this is a no attack enemy pulling power.Come and Get It 7 This is already probably the best fighter powers there is.  It also encourages enemies violate allies marks without requiring you to mark.Savage Parry 7 This interrrupt punishes enemies who attack adjacent allies.  Unfortunately the punishment is not that great and it is the same level as come and get it.Shield Bearer's vendetta  13 This is one of the better shield interrupt powers since it is multitarget with shift.Defender's Gambit 15 Provokes attacks from enemies marked by alliesDust Storm Assault  15 Mediocre close burst 1 with a stance that lets you shift your speed and make a proning attack as an OA against anyone who attacks or moves adjacent to an ally, marked or not.Cruelest Chains 17 This is a reaction power that gives the enemy the choice to shift next to you or give you a boost to your next damage roll against them.Tap and Counterstrike 17 You need to be dual wielding, but it lets you punish enemies at short range.Strike Of The Watchful Guard  19 Attack adjacent enemies who attack your allies for the encounter.Undeniable Challenge 22 Up to two targets have to attack you for a round.  Requires they be marked when you use it, but allies can then override the mark.Turnabout Riposte 23 This interrupt lets you shift and attack an enemy who attacks an ally.  Effect reduces the damage.Warrior's Urging 23 Upgraded come and get it.Gash and Goad 27 A good way to pull an enemy off a marking defender.Final Challenge 29 Reaction that forces an emeny within 4 to move to you so you can attack them or you get to charge them. KnightsNot as good as weaponmaster fighters, but better than cavaliers at least.  Defend the line is a stance that slows, so that works for helping allies with slow exploits.  Hammer hands gives you some forced movement so that can push enemies away from defenders that marked them and set up punishment for enemies coming close to you.  Bludgeoning staff and Staggering Hammer both open up options.  The fact that they don't mark targets means that a half-elf with Eldritch Strike can qualify for White Lotus Master Riposte, while one with either Virtuous Strike or a tiefling with Wrath of the Crimson Legion can use Heartwarder's level 16 feature to penalize attacks against them.PaladinsTacticsYour divine challenge and many times divine sanction can be applied from a distance and the punishment occurs from a distance.  To sustain divine challenge over a long time you either need to be adjacent to the enemy or you need to attack it, but you can do that through ranged attacks, which paladins have some, or you can do it through thrown weapon powers or ranged implement powers you get from another class.  The classic half-elf dilletante eyebite trick works here since you can eyebite the enemy from range and that makes it hard for the DM to attack you, even while marked by you.  But at this point you can get good ranged attacks from dilletante, your theme, or through regular multiclassing.Chaladins/baladins tend to do better than staladins in power selection for these situations, although straladins can more afford to focus on damage boosts for big hits.  Straladins generally want to go for the big weapon powers since that makes them a bigger threat without forcing them to be sticky.  Another big difference is that charisma powers tend to pull enemies, while strength powers tend to push enemies.Powers to considerEnfeebling Strike With power of trickery you or an ally can shift away with this at will.  And if you mark and shift the enemy is at -4 to hit your defender ally next to him with potenital divine challenge punishment.   If your ally marked it, it is next to you alone with potential punishment from your ally.Virtuous Strike This at will is here because with Power of Arcana you can you do WLR and WLMR tricks with it.  Its a hefty feat investment, but potentially worth it.Bolstering Strike With power of earth this at will slows if you are going for slow/immobilization synergy. Fortune Spurned Smite 3 This forces the enemy to moves its speed when it takes damage, which will provoke OAs and make it harder to attack you the next round.  Its str or cha. Price of cowardness 7 Interrupt that blinds an adjacent enemy who attacks your ally.Knightly Intercession 9 Interrupt for staladins that lets you pull an enemy 10 squares away from you when it attacks an ally.Ray of Reprisal 9 Close burst 5 interrupt when an ally is hit.  I like knightly intercession more, but this is for chaladins.Compel Obedience 13 a Single target shift/pull for a chaladinLetherna's Hounds 13 A close burst pulling/prone power.  Solid non-mark defending for a chaladinAvatar of Undaunted Bravery 15 Straladins get to pull an enemy each round.Liberation 16 an ally pulling and healing power Demand Respect23 A close burst 10 interrupt for chaladins that prones and blinds when they attack an ally. Champions Call 23 a close burst 5 that automatically pulls multiple targets.Discipline the unruly 25 The sustainable effect from the attack blinds and does radiant damage when any nearby enemy attacks an ally.CavaliersCavaliers are probably the trickiest defender to work into a multidefender party and would be my last choice for a second or third defender.  They don't bring much to the table.  Their defender's aura does not work on marked enemies so at least you will not be overriding marks.  Your powers are not good for a multi defender team.  There are somethings that will work, but generally you will sit there while your allies force the DM to trigger your Righteous Radiance.WardensTacticsWardens generally more defend through their powers more than through class features.  Your class features make you tough, even for a defender, and unlike most other defenders you can usually only mark adjacent enemies.  Your defender tricks come from things like having an at will melee 2 pulling power, being able to create difficult terrain, shifting towards enemies, and by immobilizing and slowing enemies.For several of your defender class features to work you need to have enemies marked.  Warden's Fury and Warden's Grasp require the target to be marked.  The second wind punishment for stormheart and wildblood require your enemies to be marked, but the second wind bonus for earthstrength and lifeblood does not.  Wildblood second winding is serious debuff that will almost force enemies to target you and after second winding allies can override your marks on the target.Powers to consider You are generally going for powers that put enemies next to you without necessarilly marking them.  This includes forced movement and you shifting towards them.  Once next to you, you will want difficult terrain, slowing, dazing, and immobilizing powers so they can't get away and are forced to attack you or not attack at all.Thorn StrikeAt will This can pull enemies marked by someone else next to you. Already one of the better warden at wills. Weight of the EarthThis is an at will slow.  Again, one of the better warden at wills already.Grasping Winds 1 (enc) If you don't have thorn strike, you will want this mass pulling power.Hungry Earth 1 (enc) difficult terrain powerForm of Winter's Herald 1 (daily) Difficult terrain and an immobilizing attackEarth Shaking Rend 5 zone of difficult terrain that prones.Rampant forest5 This lets you generate a lot of difficult terrain for your enemies.Guardian's Pounce  7 This is a solid warden power already.  A reaction that lets you shift next to an enemy who enters a square next to an ally.  A hit lowers its attack.  Forced movement should trigger it.Mountains Stature 7 I would be reluctant to not go with guardians pounce, but Earthstrength Wardens with reach weapons can pull multiple targets next to them with this power from 3 squares away. Stalactite Hook 13 If you didn't get thorn strike then this is ok. It also slows so it is kind of a combined weight of the earth and thorn strike with more damage.Drown in Mud 13 Another difficult terrain power, with immobilizing.Form of the Crushing Mountain 15 This daily form makes it hard to escape from you and hard to damage you.  And the attack is a close burst 3 pull.Leap of the relentless hunter.  17 Sort of like Guradian's pounce, but it has to be marked.Wardens Lure 17 Another close burst pull, followed by a slide.Form of the Entangling Spider 25 A big difficult terrain area around you for the encounter with an restraining power.</blockquote>

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