Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
No ascending bonuses: A mathematical framework for 5e
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5789348" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>It's a very tough question.</p><p></p><p>Magic items introduce a lot of chaos into any system. In all versions of D&D that I can recall, if the PCs didn't eventually get magic items, they were screwed. And players like magic items.</p><p></p><p>So, one possible solution might be as follows:</p><p></p><p>You design the mathematical framework of the game such that the PCs and NPCs are using the same basic math, but the NPCs might be one level below the curve (i.e. 4th level NPCs fight as 3rd level PCs) in some way. In other words, the NPCs might have a slightly harder chance to hit and might be hit a bit easier, but they might have some extra hit points and do a bit more damage than the average PC (this is the 4E model, there are other options, but typically, monsters of the same level are a little bit weaker than the PCs).</p><p></p><p>Once you determine the mathematical framework, you limit your magical items.</p><p></p><p>In 1E and 2E, there were +4 and +5 weapons, but I saw very few DMs hand them out. DMs who handed out a Sword of Sharpness or a Vorpal blade tended to regret it sooner or later. The vast majority of weapons handed out were +1, there were some +1 but +x in a specific situation, a few +2s and a very rare +3. 3E came along and decided that +4 and +5 weapons should be a major part of the game system and even +6 weapons showed up in some later splat books (or possibly the Epic Level Handbook) as artifact level.</p><p></p><p>4E went straight to +6.</p><p></p><p>The same mostly applies to other items. The powerful 1E and 2E Staffs of Power and such got weaker, the magic armor and weapons got stronger (in the straight up sense, not for other effects of the items) and were expected to be handed out.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, what if we limit magic items to +3? PCs in a normal magic campaign are expected to get a +1 weapon, armor, and (if they still exist) neck item eventually per tier (if tiers still exist).</p><p></p><p>This limits the "Christmas tree effect" somewhat because a lot fewer (of what players consider necessary) items will be handed out.</p><p></p><p></p><p>To offset this effectiveness increase on the side of the PCs, monsters have special abilities that are used or not used dependent on how many magical items the DM hands out.</p><p></p><p>For example:</p><p></p><p>A Paragon level Elite monster has his normal stat block. In addition, the monster has a section in the stat block if the DM is following the normal magic distribution rules:</p><p></p><p>Aura: When allies of the monster are within 5 squares of him, they gain +2 to their defenses (the aura does not have to be buffs or debuffs, it could be anything beneficial to the NPCs or harmful to the PCs).</p><p></p><p>If the DM is not using those distribution rules, then he ignores this Aura. The monster could even have an aura regardless, but with slightly different power levels:</p><p></p><p>Aura:</p><p></p><p>Low magic: xxxx</p><p>Medium magic: xxxx</p><p>High magic: xxxx</p><p></p><p>The DM decides the power level of this ability.</p><p></p><p>Instead of an Aura, the monster could have an additional encounter power, or one of his Encounter powers could become At Will (which makes the monster quite a bit tougher). There are a lot of optional abilities that the game system could give to the monsters to make them weaker or tougher.</p><p></p><p>The stat block could be color coded to quickly show a DM which options are which.</p><p></p><p>And, this works great for the DM. He doesn't have to use these optional abilities, just to offset magic items. He could use them if he wants to give a given set of monsters a bit more umph, or to make a given set of monsters a bit weaker.</p><p></p><p>DM: "I want to use a Mountain Troll, but it is just too tough for my players."</p><p></p><p>Problem solved. Use the weakest version of the Mountain Troll, ignore it's optional abilities, and the players are taking on a Mountain Troll.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5789348, member: 2011"] It's a very tough question. Magic items introduce a lot of chaos into any system. In all versions of D&D that I can recall, if the PCs didn't eventually get magic items, they were screwed. And players like magic items. So, one possible solution might be as follows: You design the mathematical framework of the game such that the PCs and NPCs are using the same basic math, but the NPCs might be one level below the curve (i.e. 4th level NPCs fight as 3rd level PCs) in some way. In other words, the NPCs might have a slightly harder chance to hit and might be hit a bit easier, but they might have some extra hit points and do a bit more damage than the average PC (this is the 4E model, there are other options, but typically, monsters of the same level are a little bit weaker than the PCs). Once you determine the mathematical framework, you limit your magical items. In 1E and 2E, there were +4 and +5 weapons, but I saw very few DMs hand them out. DMs who handed out a Sword of Sharpness or a Vorpal blade tended to regret it sooner or later. The vast majority of weapons handed out were +1, there were some +1 but +x in a specific situation, a few +2s and a very rare +3. 3E came along and decided that +4 and +5 weapons should be a major part of the game system and even +6 weapons showed up in some later splat books (or possibly the Epic Level Handbook) as artifact level. 4E went straight to +6. The same mostly applies to other items. The powerful 1E and 2E Staffs of Power and such got weaker, the magic armor and weapons got stronger (in the straight up sense, not for other effects of the items) and were expected to be handed out. So, what if we limit magic items to +3? PCs in a normal magic campaign are expected to get a +1 weapon, armor, and (if they still exist) neck item eventually per tier (if tiers still exist). This limits the "Christmas tree effect" somewhat because a lot fewer (of what players consider necessary) items will be handed out. To offset this effectiveness increase on the side of the PCs, monsters have special abilities that are used or not used dependent on how many magical items the DM hands out. For example: A Paragon level Elite monster has his normal stat block. In addition, the monster has a section in the stat block if the DM is following the normal magic distribution rules: Aura: When allies of the monster are within 5 squares of him, they gain +2 to their defenses (the aura does not have to be buffs or debuffs, it could be anything beneficial to the NPCs or harmful to the PCs). If the DM is not using those distribution rules, then he ignores this Aura. The monster could even have an aura regardless, but with slightly different power levels: Aura: Low magic: xxxx Medium magic: xxxx High magic: xxxx The DM decides the power level of this ability. Instead of an Aura, the monster could have an additional encounter power, or one of his Encounter powers could become At Will (which makes the monster quite a bit tougher). There are a lot of optional abilities that the game system could give to the monsters to make them weaker or tougher. The stat block could be color coded to quickly show a DM which options are which. And, this works great for the DM. He doesn't have to use these optional abilities, just to offset magic items. He could use them if he wants to give a given set of monsters a bit more umph, or to make a given set of monsters a bit weaker. DM: "I want to use a Mountain Troll, but it is just too tough for my players." Problem solved. Use the weakest version of the Mountain Troll, ignore it's optional abilities, and the players are taking on a Mountain Troll. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
No ascending bonuses: A mathematical framework for 5e
Top