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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6268448" data-attributes="member: 6677017">It seems like we're all over the place with this thread. Here are the things that just keep standing out to me:1. People who want this module also aren't generally interested in  nerfing wizards. Even if they choose to only use this module, it should  be theoretically balanced right alongside a standard wizard.2. It's a heck of a lot easier to do this if we aren't rewriting the standard wizard class.3. People who want this module generally want an old-school feel. Giving a wizard a certain number of cantrips based on some formula doesn't really solve it, because you are still lacking the vancian effect.4. People who dislike at-will cantrips are prone to prefer old-school gaming where you may have many encounters in a day and the ability to keep blasting all day long actually matters.Given #1 and #2, we need an equivalent exchange. Something you trade in for the loss of cantrips that is roughly equivalent in power. If this module is opt-in on a player by player basis, it needs to be something that some, but not all (probably not most) players will feel a desire to use.Given #3 and #4, comparing cantrips to weapons isn't relevant. No matter how you slice it, a wizard using a weapon is nowhere near equivalent to a wizard using a (current scaling) cantrip. At 1st level a wizard can do well with a crossbow (or perhaps a longbow for an elf), but at 20th level a cantrip does 5d8. 5d8! Even if you are anelf with 20 Dex and a +3 longbow that 5d8(!!!) is blowing you out of the water. Did I mention 5d8? So, "most campaigns don't go to 20th level." Apparently the logical ending to that statement, "so game balance no longer matters at high level" doesn't bother some people. So let's look at mid-levels and more reasonable weapon stats. Let's say you are a 10th level wizard with a 16 Dex and a +1 longbow or +1 crossbow. You're doing an average of 8.5 damage, while a 3d8 cantrip is doing an average of 13.5, and by the way, you get a special effect on the target with a cantrip. Still not an acceptable trade.We need (for those who want this module--I probably won't use it myself, since I enjoy-at will cantrips, sans crazy scaling) a module:A. That is a balanced trade that some, but not most/all players will find desirable.B. That doesn't mess with the original class.C. And that preserves a more old-school vancian feel (and long adventuring day sacrifice) by not creating a system that just rewires "at-will" into a lesser number of spontaneous cantrips.I'd recommend treating cantrips as 1st level spells (so that read magic and such are still available). I'd also recommend providing something that is worth about a feat in compensation. I see that this is highly problematic at 1st level, due to level dipping. The ability to take the arcane initiate feat isn't relevant, because this module would/should forbid the wizard from learning at-will cantrips by any means. So perhaps a better option would simply be to grant them an additional 1st level spell slot, and the ability to prepare an additional spell of each level from 1-4 (or so). I would have given them 2 additional spell slots, but this would make the option too appealing for those who play short adventuring days and never use their free cantrip bazookas, thereby making it too appealing of an option for that group.</blockquote>

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