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No evil gods in 4e?
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<blockquote data-quote="The Dude" data-source="post: 4229631" data-attributes="member: 30511"><p>EVIL</p><p></p><p>"Lawful Evil" is also flawed. People keep mentioned the Big Bad Evil Tyrant as the epitome of lawful evil. Two problems: 1) did the tyrant <u>really</u> become a tyrant without ever breaking the law? and 2) what about all the subordinate non-tyrants- why is there no definition of "lawful evil" that encompasses them? In a hereditary monarchy, it might be possible to become an evil tyrant without breaking the law, but unless they became a tyrant after building their power base, they probably would get knocked off by the not-so-lawful evils who stand to take over after the lawful evil tyrant's death (and leaving the "lawful evil" nontyrants to stand around wondering my they never get total power). Seems to me that the "lawful evil" tyrant is only lawful to the extent that the laws serve his purposes- which is all of them, if you are the tyrant.</p><p> You may be running "honorable" as a synonym for "lawful", but that doesn't really fit the definition either. A code of honor is a set of rules that govern the character's behavior. Well, even "dishonorable" characters have codes of conduct- those codes are simply less detailed or strict. Real life provides a great example- robbers, arsonists, and murderers all break the law without any real sense of "honor", but they won't cross the line to molesting children. The fact that they have a code of conduct that they won't break doesn't make them lawful; the fact that some characters may have a stricter code of conduct than most folks is just too vague a distinction to hang an alignment term on.</p><p></p><p>Now, an evil character might decide to (just about) always follow the law- but unless the laws have all kinds of evil-sized loopholes or exceptions, how would the character get to act evil? We don't really care about the guy who impotently wishes he got to be evil but never acts on it because those actions are illegal. Perhaps the society does have evil loopholes- but if so, isn't the "lawful evil" character being lawful only because he coincidentally happens to be in a society that lets him be evil? Would that character <em>really</em> follow all of the laws of a different non-evil society, even when no one was looking? Probably not.</p><p></p><p>Same goes for "neutral evil"- as with neutral good, this character doesn't care about following the law. However, the neutral evil character's actions will sometimes coincide with the law because it suits the character. So really, the only difference between "lawful evil" and "neutral evil" is how often the character's actions are going to coincide with the law. Neither will always follow the law, unless the laws allow them to be as evil as they want to be without breaking the law. But they are both evil.</p><p></p><p>Chaotic evil is another story. Chaotic good characters will sometimes follow the law because laws fostering community prosperity tend to also foster goodish behavior between folks and good characters (including chaotic good characters who don't like some laws or leaders) believe in the same behaviors. Chaotic evil characters have no such belief in such goodish behaviors or community prosperity. Without concern for the general "good" or the laws that require behavior that supports the general "good", these characters can be truely reckless, ruthless, and unpredictable. These are the characters that will do literally <strong>anything</strong> to get what they want- even cross lines that other evil characters won't typically cross. That is an easily determined distinction between them and other evil folks. I am ok with them gettting their own label.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Dude, post: 4229631, member: 30511"] EVIL "Lawful Evil" is also flawed. People keep mentioned the Big Bad Evil Tyrant as the epitome of lawful evil. Two problems: 1) did the tyrant [u]really[/u] become a tyrant without ever breaking the law? and 2) what about all the subordinate non-tyrants- why is there no definition of "lawful evil" that encompasses them? In a hereditary monarchy, it might be possible to become an evil tyrant without breaking the law, but unless they became a tyrant after building their power base, they probably would get knocked off by the not-so-lawful evils who stand to take over after the lawful evil tyrant's death (and leaving the "lawful evil" nontyrants to stand around wondering my they never get total power). Seems to me that the "lawful evil" tyrant is only lawful to the extent that the laws serve his purposes- which is all of them, if you are the tyrant. You may be running "honorable" as a synonym for "lawful", but that doesn't really fit the definition either. A code of honor is a set of rules that govern the character's behavior. Well, even "dishonorable" characters have codes of conduct- those codes are simply less detailed or strict. Real life provides a great example- robbers, arsonists, and murderers all break the law without any real sense of "honor", but they won't cross the line to molesting children. The fact that they have a code of conduct that they won't break doesn't make them lawful; the fact that some characters may have a stricter code of conduct than most folks is just too vague a distinction to hang an alignment term on. Now, an evil character might decide to (just about) always follow the law- but unless the laws have all kinds of evil-sized loopholes or exceptions, how would the character get to act evil? We don't really care about the guy who impotently wishes he got to be evil but never acts on it because those actions are illegal. Perhaps the society does have evil loopholes- but if so, isn't the "lawful evil" character being lawful only because he coincidentally happens to be in a society that lets him be evil? Would that character [i]really[/i] follow all of the laws of a different non-evil society, even when no one was looking? Probably not. Same goes for "neutral evil"- as with neutral good, this character doesn't care about following the law. However, the neutral evil character's actions will sometimes coincide with the law because it suits the character. So really, the only difference between "lawful evil" and "neutral evil" is how often the character's actions are going to coincide with the law. Neither will always follow the law, unless the laws allow them to be as evil as they want to be without breaking the law. But they are both evil. Chaotic evil is another story. Chaotic good characters will sometimes follow the law because laws fostering community prosperity tend to also foster goodish behavior between folks and good characters (including chaotic good characters who don't like some laws or leaders) believe in the same behaviors. Chaotic evil characters have no such belief in such goodish behaviors or community prosperity. Without concern for the general "good" or the laws that require behavior that supports the general "good", these characters can be truely reckless, ruthless, and unpredictable. These are the characters that will do literally [b]anything[/b] to get what they want- even cross lines that other evil characters won't typically cross. That is an easily determined distinction between them and other evil folks. I am ok with them gettting their own label. [/QUOTE]
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