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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8078020" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>This adds dimensions to what is still a meaningless choice -- as you presented, no choice leaves the party with enough water, so the choice to fight, or protect their water, or kill others for water is ultimately meaningless. That a thri-kreen character would be less impacted doesn't change much for the party, nor if a half-giant would be more impacted. This is still an illusionary choice foisted by the opening scene that is now trying to stand in for an actual hard choice. There's still no choice here, just the appearance of one.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I see, then, so a random encounter that forces a meaningless choice because the PC have no prior attachment? It is, as you present, just an alignment choice, or rather, the GM pushing an alignment choice onto the players. This isn't a good hard choice -- there's nothing of actual consequence on the line for the PC aside from adherence to alignment. The GM is choosing to make alignment the pain point, which is, honestly, the problem with alignment to begin with.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, you've made alignment the crux rather than anything developed in play. This is more of the usual "alignment as a club" approach rather than using alignment as a guide for the player to make more complex choices. As for no optimal solution, I fully agree -- and this can happen without the GM engineering it or writing that there's no good solution to the problem the GM is presenting in the GM's notes. My games feature lots of hard choices, and, for the vast number of them, I couldn't have even imagined them prior to finding them in play, much less crafted them. </p><p></p><p>Lots of things are a break from the norm, but that doesn't cover doing a thing poorly, especially when it's not hard to do it better. Forcing GM determined choices on the players, especially ones that are pretty much just alignment checks, is not the best way to find hard choices in your game. Enforcing consequences, and allowing player to have things to risk that are safe until they risk them (avoiding the 'so you have a family, mwahaha, you'll regret that' tropes) will lead to hard choices quickly, and ones that will resonant much more with the players because they'll be able to trace every step to that point as theirs. Putting players into dangerous and/or charged situations is really all that's needed -- hard choices find themselves. And, by all means, put players in hard situations. Slap them in the desert with not enough water all you want -- this is a great kick! Just avoid scripting the solution and forcing outcomes. If you put them in the desert, let whatever plan they come up with have a chance of working. Fail forward -- if they fail at their plan, don't shut the game down -- close that door but open another one, one more painful or costly. This way, you'll find your hard choice but the players will clearly see it was their effort, their plan, their failure that led there, not the GM pushing yet another 'no good answer' alignment test on them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8078020, member: 16814"] This adds dimensions to what is still a meaningless choice -- as you presented, no choice leaves the party with enough water, so the choice to fight, or protect their water, or kill others for water is ultimately meaningless. That a thri-kreen character would be less impacted doesn't change much for the party, nor if a half-giant would be more impacted. This is still an illusionary choice foisted by the opening scene that is now trying to stand in for an actual hard choice. There's still no choice here, just the appearance of one. I see, then, so a random encounter that forces a meaningless choice because the PC have no prior attachment? It is, as you present, just an alignment choice, or rather, the GM pushing an alignment choice onto the players. This isn't a good hard choice -- there's nothing of actual consequence on the line for the PC aside from adherence to alignment. The GM is choosing to make alignment the pain point, which is, honestly, the problem with alignment to begin with. Again, you've made alignment the crux rather than anything developed in play. This is more of the usual "alignment as a club" approach rather than using alignment as a guide for the player to make more complex choices. As for no optimal solution, I fully agree -- and this can happen without the GM engineering it or writing that there's no good solution to the problem the GM is presenting in the GM's notes. My games feature lots of hard choices, and, for the vast number of them, I couldn't have even imagined them prior to finding them in play, much less crafted them. Lots of things are a break from the norm, but that doesn't cover doing a thing poorly, especially when it's not hard to do it better. Forcing GM determined choices on the players, especially ones that are pretty much just alignment checks, is not the best way to find hard choices in your game. Enforcing consequences, and allowing player to have things to risk that are safe until they risk them (avoiding the 'so you have a family, mwahaha, you'll regret that' tropes) will lead to hard choices quickly, and ones that will resonant much more with the players because they'll be able to trace every step to that point as theirs. Putting players into dangerous and/or charged situations is really all that's needed -- hard choices find themselves. And, by all means, put players in hard situations. Slap them in the desert with not enough water all you want -- this is a great kick! Just avoid scripting the solution and forcing outcomes. If you put them in the desert, let whatever plan they come up with have a chance of working. Fail forward -- if they fail at their plan, don't shut the game down -- close that door but open another one, one more painful or costly. This way, you'll find your hard choice but the players will clearly see it was their effort, their plan, their failure that led there, not the GM pushing yet another 'no good answer' alignment test on them. [/QUOTE]
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