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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6649520" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Perhaps what we should do is be more specific. Because, in general, I agree that people lump &quot;anything to do with crawling/surviving a dungeon&quot; in the same category as &quot;anything to do with traversing/surviving the wilderness,&quot; and that might be part of the problem. As long as the &quot;survive the world-environment&quot; type stuff is merely a subset of another category, rather than a completely developed category in its own right, it's probably going to get a short shrift.In the spirit of that, I propose separating delving, which has to do with traps, locks, secret doors, &quot;dungeoneering,&quot; and all manner of &quot;survive this hellhole fortress&quot; things, from expedition, which has to do with creating shelter, finding sustenance, logistics, establishing a safe perimeter, and all manner of &quot;make sure the environment doesn't kill you&quot; things.There are a lot of classes that get &quot;delving&quot; support. Apart from the Ranger and Barbarian (and maybe Rogue), I'm not sure there are classes that get much inherent &quot;expedition&quot; support--though being a full caster goes a long way, because spells can do nearly everything. To the best of my knowledge, &quot;delving&quot; can be supported by a variety of skills, while &quot;expedition&quot; is almost completely siloed into Nature and Survival; similarly, I'm not sure there really are that many tool proficiencies or background benefits that are much use for &quot;expedition,&quot; but I could be wrong. I, personally, would like to see all classes have discrete, declarative, non-generic abilities for each pillar, that don't compete for resources with other pillars. I'd like to see items, like the hand axe, which trade a small amount of offense potential for a nice suite of other benefits, such that they'll be a nice balance-point, saving weight while working multiple jobs.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 6649520, member: 6790260"] Perhaps what we should do is be more specific. Because, in general, I agree that people lump "anything to do with crawling/surviving a dungeon" in the same category as "anything to do with traversing/surviving the wilderness," and [I]that[/I] might be part of the problem. As long as the "survive the world-environment" type stuff is merely a subset of another category, rather than a completely developed category in its own right, it's probably going to get a short shrift. In the spirit of that, I propose separating [I][B]delving[/B][/I], which has to do with traps, locks, secret doors, "dungeoneering," and all manner of "survive this hellhole fortress" things, from [I][B]expedition[/B][/I], which has to do with creating shelter, finding sustenance, logistics, establishing a safe perimeter, and all manner of "make sure the environment doesn't kill you" things. There are a lot of classes that get "delving" support. Apart from the Ranger and Barbarian (and maybe Rogue), I'm not sure there are classes that get much inherent "expedition" support--though being a full caster goes a long way, because spells can do nearly everything. To the best of my knowledge, "delving" can be supported by a variety of skills, while "expedition" is almost completely siloed into Nature and Survival; similarly, I'm not sure there really are that many tool proficiencies or background benefits that are much use for "expedition," but I could be wrong. I, personally, would like to see all classes have discrete, declarative, non-generic abilities for each pillar, that don't compete for resources with other pillars. I'd like to see items, like the hand axe, which trade a small amount of offense potential for a nice suite of other benefits, such that they'll be a nice balance-point, saving weight while working multiple jobs. [/QUOTE]

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