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Message: <blockquote data-quote="justanobody" data-source="post: 4560583" data-attributes="member: 70778">Yes including minis into the core of the game is wrong ever since the move from Chainmail. You should not be tethered to some map. What happened to the days of just having some space if/when you needed to show positions in battle, and the rest of the mapping was done by players?Now every last tiny square of a map is implied to be drawn out with tiles or something else so the players can see where they are at all times like a big glowing "YOU ARE HERE" sign in a dungeon or anywhere else.Players have been made lazy because of the overuse and emphasis on the minis, so No they should not be a part of the game, but made for any who MIGHT want to use them.So for those that don't use minis they are forced to count up grid squares like some mini combat simulator rather than have an actual game that doesn't include the visual aids, because those that want to use visual aids, have to have to rules be added to the books to know how to count distances using the minis?IF that is the intent of the minis, and I for one think the emphasis shows it is; they they screwed up.D&D is NOT a minis game. The minis are a novelty item for those that choose to use than and SHOULD be optional to use for those that want them, not having the minis made in the past somehow dictate the rules of future RPG material just to conform to those minis, that not everyone buying the new material will even have access to.In the original thread it was stated that the rules were made to fit existing minis. Existing minis should have nothing to do with the rules. You want to make a mini later, then do so following the rules provided. Minis should NOT be made at the same time as the rules, to alter the rules in any way to fit some manufacturing limitations on the RPG because of the fact that not everyone will use minis.If you demand that everyone use minis, then you should give everyone a complete set of all the minis to be used with the rules, and make D&D the board game it is being turned into."G" sized creatures are in no way harder to play with than any other creature, and any mini needed doesn't have to have places for another mini to sit or cling on to.It makes me sick seeing people trying to play D&D using minis and sticking stuff under them to show they are flying, when the minis and the game itself only have rules for 2D play with no real inclusion of the height the mini is off the ground in consideration for anything, other than people wanting to play with the minis than to play D&D. This is grown adults I am talking about to.If you want a creature that big, then you only need to visualize you climbed up its leg, you don't need to really have a mini that can fit on its leg. The minis are made to be placed on a flat surface, not to interlock onto each other vertically.Heroscape has rules for all dimensions since you can elevate things using its game so do that instead.The minis are accessories, and should be treated as such, and not as necessities.[/ <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/rant.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":rant:" title="Rant    :rant:" data-shortname=":rant:" /> ]</blockquote>

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