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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ReshiIRE" data-source="post: 8448502" data-attributes="member: 7031231">Here is a simpel question, asking about 5e Creature rules in particular (I don't have the rules for them): against a typical monster and encounter, with no bonuses or penalities applied, what is the expected chance to hit against a normal creature? What is the game designed and balanced around for it's monster / creature maths?This is a point much clearer in a system like Pathfinder 2e, which makes it really easy to pretty much any statblock you want with at-least a 16 in your primary class stat, which according to the game maths is pretty much the minimum requirement. This is also a game which most ancestories have set ability boosts and set ability maluses, with an optional 'flaw' system which allows you to give maluses to two stats in exchange for a boost to one. Three important differences is that choosing a class itself gives a bonus to the primary ability score of the class, your background gives you two ability boosts (with one being a choice between two different ability boosts, and the other being free) and perhaps most importantly each of these boosts increments the ability score of a class by two, meaning a boost always gives a modifier increase.(I also should point out that every ASI, including at character creation as it where in Pathfinder 2e allows you to select four scores to boost, but this doesn't matter a lot for to hit with your primary attribute).Taking this into account and also magic items that factor into the game's maths, generally against at-level enemies a typical character can have anywhere between a 30 to 45 chance to hit against enemies. Many things factor into the game's encounter maths, but it's pretty easy to calculate all these things out. And because plus ones are pretty important in Pathfinder 2e, not having at-least a 16, or more likely an 18, in your main class ability score is going to potential cause trouble. But the system as set up makes it easy, and doesn't force ancestories to only certain classes (some ancestories, mind, do have toruble fitting into larger achetypes or using multi-class dedications, but that's going way too away from something we can adequately compare 5e too).5e, as far as I understand, typically has a much higher average chance to hit, without requiring magic items that give boosts to hit, etc. But how much is that prejudiced on, say, having certain ability score spreads at certain levels?And how is balanced avoided by not having those spreads due to restrictions around ASIs?Basically, when in the game, as you go up in levels, are you expected to have certain modifiers to effectively play your class? Are you supposed to have +2 for tier 1, +3 for tier 2, +4 for tier 3, +5 for tier 4? Or are the expectations higher?How does this interact with feats, which for many tables are primarily chosen with ASIs?I think the answers to those questions will make it easier to judge where floating ASIs are ""powergaming"", rather than anything else.Another thing as well is that getting penalities on monsters or boosts to characters in Pathfinder 2e is easier than in 5e for a variety of reasons. I left this out of the comparison, but it does provide some extra detail why, by default, that's the typical chance to hit against an at-level enemy.I also want people's opinions on what modifier for the various different tiers and levels of play makes an unviable character, and what chance to hit. Especially taking into account that, for spellcasts, they basically get one spell per turn.</blockquote>

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