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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 9348437" data-attributes="member: 4937">Sure.&nbsp; They function well as limited toys that do one thing and are great for one offs and short campaigns.&nbsp; Eventually they are constraining and people drop them.&nbsp; Or maybe they just have very limited aesthetics of play and exercising their thespianism in a narrative game with a lot of low melodrama is enough to entertain them for hundreds of hours at a time.&nbsp; In which case, sure, you don't really need rules.Or else they just disappear, quite unlike the games that did provide 1000 pages of crunch.I think I've done a very good job of establishing why you should as a publisher be aiming to provide more pages with real value.&nbsp; Bloat is obviously a problem, and I'm fully on board with the unnecessary rules bloat of 3.5e, 4e, or 5e.That's just bias.&nbsp;&nbsp; The OP offered up his position just as concretely: &quot;Therer is no reason that 5E (or any other edition for that matter) can't be presented in a concise, complete, robust form like Dragonbane.&quot;&nbsp; It's that declaration that I'm trying to show is wrong.&nbsp; That you happen to agree with the OP's claim is why it doesn't bother you how it is presented as objective fact, while that you disagree with me is while my equally strongly stated claimed does.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 9348437, member: 4937"] Sure. They function well as limited toys that do one thing and are great for one offs and short campaigns. Eventually they are constraining and people drop them. Or maybe they just have very limited aesthetics of play and exercising their thespianism in a narrative game with a lot of low melodrama is enough to entertain them for hundreds of hours at a time. In which case, sure, you don't really need rules. Or else they just disappear, quite unlike the games that did provide 1000 pages of crunch. I think I've done a very good job of establishing why you should as a publisher be aiming to provide more pages with real value. Bloat is obviously a problem, and I'm fully on board with the unnecessary rules bloat of 3.5e, 4e, or 5e. That's just bias. The OP offered up his position just as concretely: "Therer is no reason that 5E (or any other edition for that matter) can't be presented in a concise, complete, robust form like Dragonbane." It's that declaration that I'm trying to show is wrong. That you happen to agree with the OP's claim is why it doesn't bother you how it is presented as objective fact, while that you disagree with me is while my equally strongly stated claimed does. [/QUOTE]

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