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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nevin" data-source="post: 9191755" data-attributes="member: 7024481">high level spells only break the game if you don't read them, enforce their restrictions and let the BBEGI's use them as well.  Also it's the end of telling anyone in your group ever what is coming next.  If you tell the party what is coming out of game they'll most likely win everytime.  They need to plan and sweat and memorize spells for multiple contingincies because they don't know what's coming.    I'd say any DM who hasn't commonly used pc caster classes as bad guys, or played high level Cleric or mage, and doesn't consider how the entire "ecosystem" around the high level characters is going to react is going to feel this way.   If the Bad guys use the same spells and do the smart things like blocking scrying, using forbiddence, Wish etc then they spells really don't break the game.   Now the game becomes crazy Swingy in combat.  a couple of undetected rogues can mean dead party members, a lucky spell can mean a few party members run like hell and have to come back for thier friends.  Those happy little lord of the rings moments aren't going to happen often.    your plot is going to take wild turns when say they summon high level planar ally and suddenly the Host of heavenly angels is aware of thier deeds (good and bad) and how they are affecting the reality they protect.High level games are, other High level NPC's, gods, demi-gods, mythic creatures with special abilities, demons, devils, ArchFey and all the other planar creatures out there and the higher you get the closer you get to offending the really  smart and powerful ones who aren't just going to throw an elder elemental at you.  This is where the Dragon may actually be a 20th level wizard who shapechanged and made it permanant.    You are at the level where PC's can wish a change in reality, so can Djinn, Devils, ArchFey, gods and demi-gods.   What happens if your wish changes something and Mechanus decides to fix it?   This kind of problem is what an over the top wish should create.   or, Oh goodie the cleric's god is our patron, wait the rest of the pantheon wants us dead because we are too successful.......(oops), or maybe worse the god of tricksters likes you guys and starts working you into his plans.High level run right is also very frustrating for players that don't like it when the bad guys can keep secrets.  Say the thieves guild hires mages then teleports to the ship they are guarding and swaps the cargo in mid transit without notice.   When you start looking for the guys that stole your stuff 2 months ago and probably don't even have it any more it gets frustrating.    simple things like the forbiddence spell, trace teleport, hiding magic items in lead containers, Organizations becoming interested in the PC's and worried about what they are doing researching everything about them so that when they go too far, it's a well prepared group of, say in this instance , High level Paladins, Clerics and Wizards who come for them with no warning at all because they wished a change into reality and thier God instructed them to deal with those who violated reality.    And if I were running it the leader of the paladins would have an old school antimagic , Holy sword gifted by his god to help get rid of those who were arrogant enough to change what the god's rule.   Even beating that group makes it worse because the god is still out to get the PC's.In all the arguments I've ever had about broken spells the one I hear the most is the DM who doesn't want to do to the party, the things they do.  Some DM's seem to think that's cheesy  or unfair.    That's high level.   Having just recently played 3 sessions in our level 14 with special god favors as powers,  session trying to find the kidnapped party member, then trying to get there past all thier wards and an entire city of enemies who knew we were coming and were waiting for thier chance to take us out and then dealing with the fallout after we scared a city of our enemies, (still in progress) and caused them to react and then others to react and now we are in a chain of whack a mole looking for the root cause.   That's an average high level game plot.  If you are trying to just march up to the  dragon's lair and kill a dragon and the dragon doesn't have some Wizard and cleric allies , or magic items that let them neutralize certain spells  then it'll be  easy and no fun.   I gaurrantee you if they have magic or allies who have magic and you use it properly.  You'll find it may actually become hard to convice your party to go after such things even when they have 9th level spells. Even if you are transitioning this from a low magic game where the NPC's are all level 10 or below, the universe is full of High level creatures, gods, and NPC/PC's who are going to notice the new upstarts .       All the stuff above is all over the place  but entering High level should be like discovering Game of Thrones has been going on your entire life but you just didn't notice it. but now your in the game and you have to figure out what the game really is, what the individual plans of your enemies and even your allies are and how you are going to survive it.     It is also a loooooot of work for the DM, and knowing the spells, high level abilities of all classes and what they can do and how to counter them is important.    I'd guess that is what kills most high level games, it's just too much work for the DM.</blockquote>

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