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No One Plays High Level?
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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9225219" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>5e's play loop is very simple. Go on difficult adventure, claim rewards. Where this can break down is the reward/challenge ratio. A DM might say "man, they keep taking on challenges and winning without any real problem. I better not reward them too much."</p><p></p><p>A player in the same campaign might say "I don't get it, it's been five sessions since we leveled last, some of these fights are really tough, we almost died last time! And all we have to show for it is more gold that we can't really use for anything!".</p><p></p><p>It's a communication breakdown. For the player, they want more out of the adventure. For the DM, they feel the player hasn't "earned" a reward that comes in the form of a "power boost"- after all, if the players get stronger, then the challenges have to go up a notch!</p><p></p><p>This can create a negative feedback loop in of itself- but it causes friction because the player and DM expectations don't line up.</p><p></p><p>Now before anyone says anything, yes, the adventure itself can be a reward, however, this requires a narrative that's more interesting than "grueling fights" or difficult puzzles, a trap a lot of adventures can fall into. Many forms of D&D, including 5e, are designed around whittling away at the party, making them less effective. However, the narrative design of most adventures have the difficulty escalate until there is a climactic "boss battle". Thus you can end up in a situation where the party is at their weakest when the challenge is at it's highest.</p><p></p><p>In video game design, this can lead to "rage quit", especially if the player's reward for defeating a given challenge is the knowledge that they get to do it again next adventure, without the benefit of additional levers or bigger numbers.</p><p></p><p>But of course, every time the player gets additional levers or bigger numbers, the difficulty spikes. In an ideal circumstance, this leads to parity. If the DM gets the balance wrong, however, they risk a TPK or for an adventure to be a "cakewalk". </p><p></p><p>And if the players do end up above the curve, the DM's options are limited- more enemies. bigger foes. And D&D characters don't tend to scale in a linear fashion, making this problematic- every few levels, a character might get a huge power up in the form of a new high level ability or spells on a completely new level of power.</p><p></p><p>And this is apparently by design- the game wants the players to feel stronger and to win. Death has always been treated as a failure state, and a lot of text has been applied to discussions of how the "treadmill effect" is also undesirable as it's not very much fun.</p><p></p><p>So what to do? It's something a lot of DM's have had to wrestle with. Obviously, the first step is for the play group to sit down and discuss their expectations. And to occasionally compare notes. It's perfectly possible for someone's viewpoint to be skewed.</p><p></p><p>Compare the following statements about the same campaign-</p><p></p><p>"You guys keep making my monsters useless! You totally killed my boss monster before he could even use all of his cool powers!"</p><p></p><p>"Those cool powers could have murdered us! Besides, it's not like you don't have more monsters you can use next time!"</p><p></p><p>Neither of these statements need be untrue, and in fact, they probably are both equally true. And yet, there's obviously a disconnect here, since the DM and the players are very much in an "us vs. them" mentality, the plague of D&D. For the game to work, both the DM and the players should be working towards the same ultimate goal- to make a satisfying campaign.</p><p></p><p>The DM needs to consider alternative ways to challenge the party, and the players need to consider alternative rewards for playing. Maybe it's not about beating all the monsters, but more about saving an NPC. And maybe saving that NPC gives the party a patron who can assist them down the road and offer them ways to get the things they really want!</p><p></p><p>"My friends, welcome to my home! Please, rest, enjoy yourselves. Noble Paladin, I've heard rumors of a lost holy sword, and I've gathered information and supplies if you wish to attempt to claim it..."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 9225219, member: 6877472"] 5e's play loop is very simple. Go on difficult adventure, claim rewards. Where this can break down is the reward/challenge ratio. A DM might say "man, they keep taking on challenges and winning without any real problem. I better not reward them too much." A player in the same campaign might say "I don't get it, it's been five sessions since we leveled last, some of these fights are really tough, we almost died last time! And all we have to show for it is more gold that we can't really use for anything!". It's a communication breakdown. For the player, they want more out of the adventure. For the DM, they feel the player hasn't "earned" a reward that comes in the form of a "power boost"- after all, if the players get stronger, then the challenges have to go up a notch! This can create a negative feedback loop in of itself- but it causes friction because the player and DM expectations don't line up. Now before anyone says anything, yes, the adventure itself can be a reward, however, this requires a narrative that's more interesting than "grueling fights" or difficult puzzles, a trap a lot of adventures can fall into. Many forms of D&D, including 5e, are designed around whittling away at the party, making them less effective. However, the narrative design of most adventures have the difficulty escalate until there is a climactic "boss battle". Thus you can end up in a situation where the party is at their weakest when the challenge is at it's highest. In video game design, this can lead to "rage quit", especially if the player's reward for defeating a given challenge is the knowledge that they get to do it again next adventure, without the benefit of additional levers or bigger numbers. But of course, every time the player gets additional levers or bigger numbers, the difficulty spikes. In an ideal circumstance, this leads to parity. If the DM gets the balance wrong, however, they risk a TPK or for an adventure to be a "cakewalk". And if the players do end up above the curve, the DM's options are limited- more enemies. bigger foes. And D&D characters don't tend to scale in a linear fashion, making this problematic- every few levels, a character might get a huge power up in the form of a new high level ability or spells on a completely new level of power. And this is apparently by design- the game wants the players to feel stronger and to win. Death has always been treated as a failure state, and a lot of text has been applied to discussions of how the "treadmill effect" is also undesirable as it's not very much fun. So what to do? It's something a lot of DM's have had to wrestle with. Obviously, the first step is for the play group to sit down and discuss their expectations. And to occasionally compare notes. It's perfectly possible for someone's viewpoint to be skewed. Compare the following statements about the same campaign- "You guys keep making my monsters useless! You totally killed my boss monster before he could even use all of his cool powers!" "Those cool powers could have murdered us! Besides, it's not like you don't have more monsters you can use next time!" Neither of these statements need be untrue, and in fact, they probably are both equally true. And yet, there's obviously a disconnect here, since the DM and the players are very much in an "us vs. them" mentality, the plague of D&D. For the game to work, both the DM and the players should be working towards the same ultimate goal- to make a satisfying campaign. The DM needs to consider alternative ways to challenge the party, and the players need to consider alternative rewards for playing. Maybe it's not about beating all the monsters, but more about saving an NPC. And maybe saving that NPC gives the party a patron who can assist them down the road and offer them ways to get the things they really want! "My friends, welcome to my home! Please, rest, enjoy yourselves. Noble Paladin, I've heard rumors of a lost holy sword, and I've gathered information and supplies if you wish to attempt to claim it..." [/QUOTE]
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