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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9226253" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>Ok what is a good feat my 7th level fighter with can take to be great at hiding no later than 8th level if he has invested zero points to date.</p><p></p><p>You claim I can do that, now tell me how!</p><p></p><p>If I can't do it at 8th level (and I already know I can't) tell me the process to make myself great at this and how many levels it is going to take.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I know I can't achieve even 5% of the concepts I can acheive in 5E in a .</p><p></p><p>You have already said on an earlier thread you pick a race that compliments your class, so you have already writeen off a bunch of concepts right there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>EXACTLY! Can do that concept.... at least not well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So that is 5 points halved to invest in a cross-class skill, giving me actually 2 extra (and one left over). I take that feat, invest the 2 points, the 1 I get for being a fighter and I still suck at the skill for this level. Not I am mediocre, not I am below average. I still suck even after spending a feat on it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok I told you how long I think it would take, map out for me how to actually do it in 2 levels. I am a 7th level fighter without any points in the Shadowdancer prerequisites now, tell me how to get a level of Shadowdancer NLT than character level 11.</p><p></p><p>Please, you say I can do it in 1-3 levels now tell me how!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Screw that! This makes no sense at all. Gating in is exactly what the name implies - gatekeeping!</p><p></p><p>Just let me take the feat when I want it. If I want to skip skill focus and take skill master I should be able to, I want to skip dodge and spring attack and take Whirlwind attack I should be able to.</p><p></p><p>There is no reason to chain feats or bar certain characters from certain feats.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've given you many examples of things you are not allowed to take bby the rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, give me some examples of good feats that are not chained and are the equivalent of chained feats in their respective group. For example a non-chained combat feat that is the equivalent of Greater Weapon Specialization.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First off, I don't want to "grow into" something. I want to get it now. Second this is just factually false. If my 7th Level Wizard wants to take Whirlwind attack after spending a night in a Dervish camp she can't do it, and she can't <em> "grow into it" in 1-3 levels. </em></p><p></p><p>If she stays Wizard it will never be possible to get that feat at all. Even if she multiclasses to fighter it is going to take 5-6 levels to get there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, we are talking about the number of options the rules support, and in 5E they support everything theoretically possible due to the fact that according to the rules, the rules themselves are mutable.</p><p></p><p>This is the logical fallacy with your earlier observation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well to start with, if it is my character I am building I would have decided what his or her intelligence was, and I will point out you are right now fencing my ability to build this off an average intelligence character concept.</p><p></p><p>Also, your 5 skill points you used a feat for still get halved to invest in cross-class skills.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If that is the story I am trying to achieve that that is EXACTLY the story I am trying to achieve.</p><p></p><p>So what you are saying is the rules don't really support all these story options, they only provide very limited and counched support,or support over time.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok tell me how to do it in fewer, let's assume I want to do this with my 8 intelligence Elf fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So it is "not right" to play a low intelligence fighter if I want to?</p><p></p><p>What you are really saying here is that the 3.5E rules don't support a low intelligence fighter character concept. Add that to the long list of characters you can't do effectively in 3.5E!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you don't know the rules. The first two are options you do not have to take, the 3rd is a fighting style option available to Rangers ..... and as I noted earlier undead, despite not being required, is a themtically approriate favored enemy for the Shadowfell.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9226253, member: 7030563"] Ok what is a good feat my 7th level fighter with can take to be great at hiding no later than 8th level if he has invested zero points to date. You claim I can do that, now tell me how! If I can't do it at 8th level (and I already know I can't) tell me the process to make myself great at this and how many levels it is going to take. And I know I can't achieve even 5% of the concepts I can acheive in 5E in a . You have already said on an earlier thread you pick a race that compliments your class, so you have already writeen off a bunch of concepts right there. EXACTLY! Can do that concept.... at least not well. So that is 5 points halved to invest in a cross-class skill, giving me actually 2 extra (and one left over). I take that feat, invest the 2 points, the 1 I get for being a fighter and I still suck at the skill for this level. Not I am mediocre, not I am below average. I still suck even after spending a feat on it. Ok I told you how long I think it would take, map out for me how to actually do it in 2 levels. I am a 7th level fighter without any points in the Shadowdancer prerequisites now, tell me how to get a level of Shadowdancer NLT than character level 11. Please, you say I can do it in 1-3 levels now tell me how! Screw that! This makes no sense at all. Gating in is exactly what the name implies - gatekeeping! Just let me take the feat when I want it. If I want to skip skill focus and take skill master I should be able to, I want to skip dodge and spring attack and take Whirlwind attack I should be able to. There is no reason to chain feats or bar certain characters from certain feats. I've given you many examples of things you are not allowed to take bby the rules. Ok, give me some examples of good feats that are not chained and are the equivalent of chained feats in their respective group. For example a non-chained combat feat that is the equivalent of Greater Weapon Specialization. First off, I don't want to "grow into" something. I want to get it now. Second this is just factually false. If my 7th Level Wizard wants to take Whirlwind attack after spending a night in a Dervish camp she can't do it, and she can't [I] "grow into it" in 1-3 levels. [/I] If she stays Wizard it will never be possible to get that feat at all. Even if she multiclasses to fighter it is going to take 5-6 levels to get there. No, we are talking about the number of options the rules support, and in 5E they support everything theoretically possible due to the fact that according to the rules, the rules themselves are mutable. This is the logical fallacy with your earlier observation. Well to start with, if it is my character I am building I would have decided what his or her intelligence was, and I will point out you are right now fencing my ability to build this off an average intelligence character concept. Also, your 5 skill points you used a feat for still get halved to invest in cross-class skills. If that is the story I am trying to achieve that that is EXACTLY the story I am trying to achieve. So what you are saying is the rules don't really support all these story options, they only provide very limited and counched support,or support over time. Ok tell me how to do it in fewer, let's assume I want to do this with my 8 intelligence Elf fighter. So it is "not right" to play a low intelligence fighter if I want to? What you are really saying here is that the 3.5E rules don't support a low intelligence fighter character concept. Add that to the long list of characters you can't do effectively in 3.5E! So you don't know the rules. The first two are options you do not have to take, the 3rd is a fighting style option available to Rangers ..... and as I noted earlier undead, despite not being required, is a themtically approriate favored enemy for the Shadowfell. [/QUOTE]
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