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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9226778" data-attributes="member: 7030563">Ok name some that are as good as the chained feats that could be had at that level.A 10 hide and a 0 move silently will not even make you good at hiding against most enemies  at 8th level.+7 stealth at 8th level in 5E is equal to about +10 in BOTH Hide and Move Silently in 3.5E at level 8 and it will actually be better as I advance without investing anything more.You don't have to play with a nature association on a Ranger.Not true.  Most fighter subclasses offer extra skills or bonuses when using certain skills.The Rune Knight subclass is the extreme example, giving you advantage on 6 different skill checks and you can get situational advantages on all strength checks and a +2 on all strength and con  checks on top of that.  That is just one class as an example.If you are  talking about single class builds Fighter-Rune Knight is one of the best platforms in 5E for a skill monkey.   You would use feats, race and background to compliment this obviously but Rune Knights already get a ton in the way of skills.I want to grow it in one level.  Or at least to effectiveness in 1 level.No you don't.  If you take the feat as a fighter you have 2 ranks in hide because hide is a cross class skill and it costs 4 skill points to get 2 ranks.No you won't.  Also, the maximum you can have in hide as a 9th level fighter is 7.Ok you don;t like Shadowdancer, but you are making all these vague references of how I can do what I want in 1-3 levels.  Well tell me how you are going to do that.  IF not Shadowdancer then what?That is what I said to start with!  In 3.5E you are limited to weak feats unless you start planning from very early levels.  You afre the one who claimed I can take awesome feats without ever planning for them.Those feats mostly (or maybe all) require prerequisites and are chained feats! I asked for an example of a good Feat I can take at 8th level without having prepared to take it in advance and I think the only one of those on that list is Dive For Cover. Yet another example of a chained feat.Yes I am.  There is little other reason for a Wizard to  get that feat.No they weren't because DM fiat was not officially part of the 3.5E  rules.The 3.5E rules did not state that the DM can change all the rules.It can't meet the same number.  It can meet more.Your average low roll is a 9.  On average your characters lowest stat will be a 9 and it will be somewhere in your array.  With poor rolls you could have a 5.You are assuming much better than average.On average you will have TWO abilities less than 12 on 4d6-1.  Not one, two.  Your lowest roll on average will be an 9, and your second lowest a 10.  So unless you are assuming much better than average rolls those numbers will be somewhere.So if you are assuming every ability is at least 12 you are assuming very optimistic rolls.Above you mentioned a 13 Dexterity, so we will assume Dex is 13.  Since we are talking about a fighter it stands to reason that Strength and Constitution are the highest two stats. So that leaves the 3 lowest stats to split between Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma.  With those numbers statistically being 9, 10 and 12 you have a 66% chance of having below a 12 Intelligence with average rolls.No I'm not.  Being able to hide effectively and getting Gloomstalker abilities after 3 levels is not a power  move.  Especially since I could get another feat, a 3rd attack and rerolling saving throws in 4 levels if I don't do that.</blockquote>

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