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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Guest&nbsp; 85555" data-source="post: 9604662">I realize this. We've had these discussion before lol (And I think you and I just have wildly different approaches to interpretation of text: I remember at one point we were completely at odds over whether a line from Dark Sun was intended to be delivered with irony for instance).But I would disagree that their views were out of sync with their times. Particularly Howard, who expressed a lot of views you would have encountered in Texas during Jim Crow (I alluded to his letters, which people can google and see what he said, and those were horrible sentiments I think we know were unfortunately not uncommon in his day). And Lovecraft's views were also not that uncommon in New England at the time. I do agree they are amplified by mental illness and his unique personality quirks, and he was more obsessive about them but even when I was a kid you would still encounter people believing what he believed about English bloodlines in New England. And when my grandfather was young, some of Lovecraft's views were socially enforced. For example in the Diamond District in Lynn, Italians weren't allowed. He had many stories of 'being kicked out by Yankees'. That kind of ethnic racism was really common in New England at that time (and when I was young Ethnicity was still really important). He was also a boxer in the 30s and 40s, before the war, and I have copies of his boxing license where "complexion" was listed (and his complexion was listed as medium). I do think Lovecraft stands out a bit more than Howard, but it also isn't as malignant as other forms of racism that were widespread and mainstream at the time (like the way black people were being oppressed, at times violently). I think if you look at what was going on in America and Europe in those times, it is very obvious these were views that were much more widespread, even mainstream at the time. I am not saying in literature there aren't lots of figures who stand out in disagreement (I would expect that as the arts often attract people who are contrarian and forward thinking). But in terms of the world they lived in, it was a very racist time period. Again, we are talking about a time when segregation was the law in many southern states. When scientific racism was an accepted norm in many universities, and when we had presidents who embraced it. I don't see how one can see how racist and oppressive the US was in the 20s and 30s, yet consider Howard and Lovecraft to be outliers on race.Again, I have no issue with people calling either of them racist (or for that matter saying they don't think they were racist, or their views evolved to the point of not being racist). I say let people read teh stuff and decide for themselves what to think. But I do have an issue with people warping the history, to make it sound like the times they were living in were less racist. This is one of the most racist periods in US history</blockquote>

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