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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Firebird" data-source="post: 9606921" data-attributes="member: 7015803">I think it is a bit simplistic to say the trope is entirely ahistorical, although I also wouldn't say Ibn Khaldun had history right. ("War made the state and the state made war" is an appropriate rejoinder. Or any of Fukuyama's stuff). But much more than whether it is right as a universal story of history, I think it is interesting on a personal and societal level in how it relates to what we value and what sorts of lives we want to lead. Is the Good Life one of comfort or of struggle? Not something with a simple or clear answer. Haha, there is quite a bit to say about Paul and Herbert. In general I believe in the Death of the Author so I'm not particularly concerned with Herbert's opinions. But I think Herbert's statements regarding Paul are often read/interpreted too simply, and if you stick too strongly to that interpretation you end up killing most of what is interesting about Dune (like the recent movie). There's a much broader conversation to be had about interpretation, the 'right' way to enjoy art...I don't think this is the place though. Agree regarding Max. Paul shows great reluctance as well.</blockquote>