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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5669448" data-attributes="member: 35909">A lot of domains/schools/etc... give things at 20th level like immunity to a type of energy, so that's sort of a capstone.I miss prestige classes.&nbsp; The caster ones that were just plain better than the base class were a blight, but I liked the others as viable options.&nbsp; Now prestige classes just suck, and some of their drawbacks are infuriatingly arbitrary.&nbsp; Why can't a prestige class be your favored class?&nbsp; Why?!&nbsp; Why do prestige classes get nerfed save progressions, yet the medium BAB ones all still start at +0 instead of +1?&nbsp; If they meant to continue the save prgoressions and BAB a base class would've had, the BAB should start at 1.&nbsp; That way it might boost the progression by a level or two, but at least won't destroy your BAB.&nbsp; With it at +0, it will definitely hurt you.Why does it seem like the entire design philosophy behind prestige classes seems to be &quot;make it suck, but then its last level is a capstone and thus awesome, making the other 9 levels worth it, but it can't be too good because they're getting their capstone 3-4 levels before a base class.&quot;&nbsp; That's as succinct as I can describe the thought process.&nbsp; The point of a PrC in many cases seems to be &quot;get your capstone a little early.&quot;Finally, I hate archetypes.&nbsp; The only one I like is Qinggong Monk, because the changes are all optional.&nbsp; Other archetypes don't have to be that loose, but cripes is it annoying when you can't merge two because they're all different except they both replace a level 20 ability (definitely some cases of this, especially with monks).&nbsp; Or both remove heavy armor proficiency but otherwise don't interfere (like Emissary and Beastrider Cavalier), and you can't even pay a feat on heavy armor proficiency just to pay for the second archetype by RAW.&nbsp; Or how by RAW a Ninja can't take all the Rogue archetypes that trade trapsense and trapfinding, even though the Ninja's Poison Use and...the no trace thingy... are probably about equal in power and several of the archetypes thematically fit ninja BETTER...&nbsp; Just some examples.&nbsp; Archetypes are way, way too rigid.&nbsp; I miss the good old &quot;alternate class feature.&quot;&nbsp; Stuff that's just line item &quot;replace X with Y,&quot; and is (hopefully) a balanced trade on the face of it.&nbsp; None of this archetype crap where a Paladin ends up trading charisma to saves for Celestial as a language (are you kidding me?!) and it's ok, because later on he gets a souped up mount.&nbsp; Or archetypes that give the goodies early and have you pay later.&nbsp; It's so screwed up.&nbsp; The best part of alternate class features is that since they were tied to a certain ability, often times variants or new classes that came out later on with that class feature could then gain that functionality and use the swap themselves, no need for a new printing or special language/rules.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 5669448, member: 35909"] A lot of domains/schools/etc... give things at 20th level like immunity to a type of energy, so that's sort of a capstone. I miss prestige classes. The caster ones that were just plain better than the base class were a blight, but I liked the others as viable options. Now prestige classes just suck, and some of their drawbacks are infuriatingly arbitrary. Why can't a prestige class be your favored class? Why?! Why do prestige classes get nerfed save progressions, yet the medium BAB ones all still start at +0 instead of +1? If they meant to continue the save prgoressions and BAB a base class would've had, the BAB should start at 1. That way it might boost the progression by a level or two, but at least won't destroy your BAB. With it at +0, it will definitely hurt you. Why does it seem like the entire design philosophy behind prestige classes seems to be "make it suck, but then its last level is a capstone and thus awesome, making the other 9 levels worth it, but it can't be too good because they're getting their capstone 3-4 levels before a base class." That's as succinct as I can describe the thought process. The point of a PrC in many cases seems to be "get your capstone a little early." Finally, I hate archetypes. The only one I like is Qinggong Monk, because the changes are all optional. Other archetypes don't have to be that loose, but cripes is it annoying when you can't merge two because they're all different except they [i]both replace a level 20 ability[/i] (definitely some cases of this, especially with monks). Or both remove heavy armor proficiency but otherwise don't interfere (like Emissary and Beastrider Cavalier), and you can't even pay a feat on heavy armor proficiency just to pay for the second archetype by RAW. Or how by RAW a Ninja can't take all the Rogue archetypes that trade trapsense and trapfinding, even though the Ninja's Poison Use and...the no trace thingy... are probably about equal in power and several of the archetypes thematically fit ninja BETTER... Just some examples. Archetypes are way, way too rigid. I miss the good old "alternate class feature." Stuff that's just line item "replace X with Y," and is (hopefully) a balanced trade on the face of it. None of this archetype crap where a Paladin ends up trading charisma to saves for Celestial as a language (are you kidding me?!) and it's ok, because later on he gets a souped up mount. Or archetypes that give the goodies early and have you pay later. It's so screwed up. The best part of alternate class features is that since they were tied to a certain ability, often times variants or new classes that came out later on with that class feature could then gain that functionality and use the swap themselves, no need for a new printing or special language/rules. [/QUOTE]

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