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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tx7321" data-source="post: 3328711" data-attributes="member: 43146">Eyebeam: " very much disagree. Just as the credit for 1e really rests on the shoulders of the people who made it work despite its flaws, the blame for 2e rests on the shoulders of people who didn't cooperate with the idea that optional rules were just that"As I recall, those that played 2E did so FOR these "optional rules" otherwise they'd have stuck with 1E.  Those DMs that did attempt to play without these rules were shown the pavement pronto.  Thats why DMs either embraced  the games changes (you say are optional) or left it altogether. A Game Table is no different then a pirate ship.  The captains captain only as long as he has support of his crew.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> eyebeam: "1e's combat rules were utterly borked, to the extent that most games ignored around half of the rules. If you're having fun with 50% of the combat rules altered or ignored, then *you* deserve the credit, not AD&D1e. "Well, the 1E rules boil down to this: each side (monsters) vs. (PCs) role a d6.  The high role goes first.  What you role on the D20 is checked on the to hit tables (for class or monster).This was understood by everyone (despite feeling like they were missing something else).  All the house rules were hung on this skeleton, a very simple and quick combat system.  Even if you used a d10 and reversed order it didn't matter, it was essentially the same thing. So, I think you have to give ALLLLLL the credit to the creators of the game (ie Gygax and Arneson) not the players or DMs.  Any DM good or bad (knowledge wise), who followed the above combat system, could produce an outstanding game.  One of our groups all time favorite game sessions was DMed by a girl in the group who'd barely played but read alot of fantasy and science fiction.  She stuck to using her common since on most things and just did the d6 high role goes first and checked the tables.   She had good common sense, and the players would have had no idea she wasn't an experianced DM if they didn't already know her.  On the otherhand one of our worst experiances was DMed by a guy who new the rules very well (a sit in DM from another group) but didn't understand "fantasy" or how the philosophy of the game worked (basically a really gay adventure we were railroaded through).Its a miss-conception on the part of most players (and people on these sites) that the core of 1E is complex.  Its not. (I once asked Gary why he used so much of the book explaining the mundane like gem types and values, and nothing on the rules.  He said the rules were very simple, it was everything else that people would need help with). 1E/OD&D is playing make believe in someone elses head, but using dice to determine who hits.  Whats most important to 1E are its archetypes, and its setting (as you pointed out grungy underground sword and sworcery).  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />   As long as the players create the story, and the DM provides the proper setting your in good shape.  Hell, the DM doesn't even need to bring a dungeon.  Just do it on the fly.EDIT -  PS, I forgot to mention.  The tables themselves are perhaps the most important part of the 1E experiance.  D20 is equally simple, but results in a completely different feel.  The sign of a good 1E DM was that he kept his players in their imaginations playing make believe, not fiddling with their papers.  Thats the #1 problem difference between 1E and 3E, and the main problem I have with 3E (and ironically what I see as its "#1 problem", is what the games fans love most about it).</blockquote>

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