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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ourph" data-source="post: 3340362" data-attributes="member: 20239">I think the PHB does a pretty good job giving the players a basic understanding of what their characters can do.  The nuts and bolts of the actual performance aren't something they need to understand.  No, I don't think a Paladin necessarily needs to know exactly how the rules say his mount functions within the game to play his character well; and I think the idea that an Assassin character would have access to the assassination tables is ludicrous.I'm not convinced that equation balances.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Modifiers are added to the die roll.  As a DM, I've never had the players write down their saving target numbers.  They roll the die, add any modifiers and tell me the result.  I cross reference the number on the appropriate save table on my DM screen and tell them whether they succeed or fail.  All I have to do is remember their class and level (not difficult, even for 8+ players).IIRC, none of the class abilities you mention were in any way controlled by the players.  They worked all the time and didn't require any special input in order to function.  The modifiers were spelled out in the PHB and the player could certainly take responsibility for reminding the DM that they applied when surprise checks or initiative was rolled, but the details in the DMG were to help the DM adjudicate the situation after modifiers were applied, at which point the player is not involved anyway.I think we may have to agree to disagree on this.  I still don't see how the players need to know anything about the system in order to play their characters (other than perhaps that training rules exist and the DM will tell you what's necessary for leveling your character after you've accumulated the necessary experience points).  The fact that players will learn about the rules during the course of play doesn't mean they need access to the rules before play begins, there's an important distinction there.  The fact that the PCs are required to seek out trainers and facilities necessitates that the DM be an integral part of the leveling process (he must create and place those NPCs and facilities after all).  The fact that he has knowledge of the nuts and bolts of how training works is sufficient.  The players function just fine without having reference to those rules.</blockquote>

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