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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 8744739" data-attributes="member: 6799660">I think Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea works under that setup -- you have class and background and are 'proficient' in any task that such a character would have (ex: former town guard might have perception, intimidation, and carousing-like abilities). Honestly, 3.x/PF* to me always seems like... I don't want to be too disparaging, but kinda 'a pretense of being different (from a 5e-like situation), but only at the margins' (but only slightly, if that's a thing). They give hard, solid, rigorous (potentially bad**) numbers for things like how high you can jump, how hard it is to climb a wet, rough cliff face with handholds, how long it takes to craft an item, etc. They don't really do any better, however, in  creating or helping resolve complex non-magic/non-spell tasks like hiring retainers; do things with wilderness travel other than boolean lost?-Y/N, can track?-Y/N, and movement speed; planning the construction of a castle; determining the challenge a hedge maze will be for the PCs; chase scenes; or adjudicating clue-finding in a mystery. It's really those more complex scenarios and systems which would make the skill section of the game an equal partner to spells and combat, and honestly I don't think any of the D&Ds/-alikes really have gone very far into that (admittedly really challenging to do well) morass. *v.1; perhaps 2e has changed this**I find the numbers not to be great great, IMO, but that's mostly a side-issue in how they interact with magic items and compared to solving problems with spells instead. The message I got from 3e's skills system was 'being a high-int 8 SP/level class will never be as awesome as having magic items which give you pluses in all your important skills, and either way the party wizard will probably have a more reliable solution. I suspect the (arguable) point is that you can find people who are good at violin and dance but not singing or tuba, but few people who are good at noticing just one kind of thing around them. Personally, I think being on active watch vs. specifically searching for a thing are distinct abilities, although exactly how they are split out in 5e doesn't seem particularly intuitive.</blockquote>

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