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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rystil Arden" data-source="post: 3451396" data-attributes="member: 29014">No, I'm saying that taking them leads the discussion to a place of comparing feat optimisation where it probably shouldn't go (because if I use those two feats for the Conjurer to make the Conjurer even stronger, you could then claim that it's only because of those two feats).Why yes.  Yes I am.  In fact, you've hit the nail on the head.  For direct damage anyway, and that's what we're talking about here.  The spells are just that broken.  Notice that they do slightly more damage than the Evoker in the example before applying SR.  There is no possible reason to prepare Polar Ray over Twinned Orb of X (uses the same slot for much more damage even without SR, and extremely more damage with SR).  With Orbs in existence (if you don't take the better way out and houserule them to allow SR, of course), SR no longer matters because your staple attack spell doesn't allow it.  The old spells that ignore SR deal tidbits of damage over time, and often less than the Evocation spell does up front even after all the time (unless the enemies are somehow forced to stay in an area spell), so you actually have to think about which to pick.  Orbs are right now, they do slightly more damage without SR, and they ignore SR.  Thus they make SR obsolete.  Let's examine the possible situations if you don't believe:The Old Way when Orbs didn't exist--Situation 1: Enemy doesn't have SR--Optimally you would cast an Evocation, since they do much more damage than the Conjuration equivalents and they do it right now.  You have to prepare some Evocations so that you can do this though.  If you're stuck with only Conjurations you're in trouble.Situation 2: Enemy has SR--Optimally you would cast a Conjuration spell that ignores SR, but if you're any good at caster level, the Evocation with the SR chance actually looks attractive here too, but either way, the presence of SR lowers your damage output.Now With Orbs:Situation 1: Enemy doesn't have SR--Cast Orb and do slightly more damage or cast Evocations for slightly less--we should prepare the Orbs in case of below, thoughSituation 2: Enemy has SR--cast Orb, ignore the SR, and do massively more damage   than the Evocation, and the same as the Orb did to the no-SR guy.  Because we prepare the Orb either way, SR didn't matter at all--it is rendered irrelevant.</blockquote>

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