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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 3459472" data-attributes="member: 9789">Ah, you're right - wow, totally don't know what I was doing there.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Hmm...  I guess this is a matter of interpretation.  Depending on how you approach the situation, there's a lot to be said for a red dragon understanding its weakness and doing something to account for it.  However, if we're going for "a totally surprised dragon" (that doesn't have feats from the Dragonomicon, or contengency spells, or any pre-buffs other than 30 resistance) and again ignoring it making any smart moves, you're right.  x1.5 easily puts the damage range into "autokill" without a problem.Really?  Admixture gives you avg. 52.5 * 1.5 (cold) + avg. 52.5 (other element) = 131.25.  Maximized gives you 90 * 1.5 = 135.  Besides the fact that maximized gives you a greater reliability, it also gives a higher number.  Unless you're saying you could admixture (cold) and (cold), in which case, yes it would give you a slightly higher average damage (157.5).Um... yeah.  I mean, again if you're saying the wizard would spend a lot of time buffing or buying items to prepare or something, then it would be higher - but then you might as well allow the red dragon to cast a few of his own upper-level spells, too.  But seriously, I thought I'd be generous with a 12 Con.  I'd guess some wizards have more, but typically even upper level wizards don't get a lot more.  Wizards don't have HP because wizards don't get hit.  If you're playing a wizard and you get hit by something (or at least, if you get hit by TWO somethings), then you're not playing a very good wizard.But still, let's say the wizard had a Con of 18.  That's way high, but that still only gives him 99 HP.  That's still under average for the breath weapon.Honestly, I understand your math, but I think you're presenting an idealized situation.  Two 15th level casters, prepared to the gills, knowing what they're fighting, buffed all up, are going to do SERIOUS damage to anything, anywhere, anytime.  That said, there should be no way they could guarentee to kill the dragon in 1 round, even with the orb spells.  And if they cannot kill the dragon in 1 round, they will not kill the dragon without more of a plan than what you've presented.  As I said, 1 4th level spell ruins this plan completely.  And of course, 1 full attack against any mage by a dragon is far more likely to work than these orb spells.As I believe someone earlier has stated, in order to prove that these spells are broken, you will need to show that they are broken in a common sort of occurance.  This setup is so far from common - or even unusual - that it fails to convince me as an argument.Again, I think it is amazing that two wizards, fully prepared and with lots of planning could get very close to guarenteeing that they could down a CR 24 red dragon under ideal circumstances.  I just don't think that warrants rewriting a spell.</blockquote>

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