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Message: <blockquote data-quote="James McMurray" data-source="post: 3463554" data-attributes="member: 743">No, the Evoker needs SP and GSP to function competently in his job as area nuker, whether orbs exist or not.Ah, didn't check the stats. It doesn't change that the devils are a bad choice bacause while they're closer to a fair trade, they're still weighted in favor of orbs.No posts have moved. I'm still wanting a fair example. The ones given aren't fair.I gave 4 CR 11s because that's what an ECL 15 encounter would be. I also don't have Complete Arcane with me. I'd originally wanted to use Elemental Monoliths.Who said anything about only? I gave the earth elementals as an example that's on the opposite end of the "fairness" scale from the dragon example. I then went on to state what a truly fair example would require.Too lazy? You mean like the people that dismissed my calculations of touch ACs out of hand? I'm sorry, but I'm not going to believe numbers some random Joe on the internet throws out without seeing the work. If it means I'm too lazy, that's fine by me.I've said all sorts of substantive things, but as they're on the less popular side of the fence they get dismissed en masse. But as was said several pages back (by me) this thread isn't going anywhere.The rules are very clear that the orbs are nonmagical attacks, just like all other instantaneous conjurations. If you allow orbs to hit incorporeal creatures, you also have to allow swords created via conjuration to hit incoporeal creatures.I was going to post numbers with my elementals, but had a brain fart trying to remember the formula for expected damage with a save for half spell that allows SR. IF someone will be kind enough to post that I'll happily dig around fora few EL 15 encounters that orbs are decent in but AoEs rule.</blockquote>

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