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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IanB" data-source="post: 3479543" data-attributes="member: 1473">A touch AC of 20 really is pretty rough. I am not expecting my wizards to spend feats to get to precise shot, so it will be reasonably common for the wizard to be taking a -4 for shooting into melee against these opponents. Giving the wizard what is, in my opinion, a generous +15 touch attack at level 20, they are going to miss a balor in melee on 40% of orb attacks without even taking the possibility of cover into account. If the balor has cover as well it goes up to a 60% chance to miss.What I *do* see most wizards in my games take is spell penetration and greater spell penetration. With a total level check of +24 against the SR 28 balor, overcoming SR is a much better bet. Against the SR 32 pit fiend, it is a similar chance of success to the orb (you need an 8 for SR vs. a 6 on your attack roll if you get the pit fiend out in the open with no cover or melee.) That seems fine to me, especially given the unlikeliness that I'm ever just going to toss an unsupported balor against a level 20 party.Like I said, I'm not totally done with the analysis. In particular I want to look at what humanoid type opponents are going to be running for their touch ACs/miss chances/etc before I make the final call, but based on the SRD numbers, I think the orb spells are within reason (albeit certainly at the high end!)Note that I've already said I'm banning the 'metamagic takes 1 less level' feat, which to me is a bigger problem.</blockquote>

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