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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4059784" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Yes, absolutely. It challenged my assumptions that I was playing a very realistic game, and made me think seriously about what I had been doing. That's always a good thing. I don't think you quite get the same rich texture to your world, even if you in practice end up handwaving away demographics, if you don't consider your demographics.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is very much going to depend on what period you are actually simulating. Most D&D campaigns I'm aware of much more closely resemble the early modern period in fashion, style, architecture, city life, and so forth than they do the medieval - much less the early medieval. And, if your campaign is anything like mine, the local 'tech level' can vary somewhat widely especially in what we might call 'social technology'. Make sure you are getting the feel that you want and asking the right questions. </p><p></p><p>For example, the medieval demographic pattern is actually based on the assumption of settlement before grain fed horses become the default means of providing animal power. The medieval countryside is laid out according to the needs of an ox cart. The reasonable daily round trip for an ox cart is only about 8 miles, which means that villages tend to be small and quite closely spaced (3-4 miles apart) so that commerce can flow between them. It's quite reasonable to assume that the area was settled at a time when everyone was using grainfed horses pulling wagons, and consolidate every 6 or so small villages into a single larger village (nearly a town) of 300-400 inhabitants spaced every 10 miles or so apart. This is what I do principally because its makes mapping a whole lot easier.</p><p></p><p>Another thing to consider is that the real medievals were living pretty much alone. I use Ross's demographic numbers not to give the population of the kingdom, but instead to give the total population of sentient beings living in the area of the kingdom. Not all of them need be human or even give fealty to or recognize the existance of the political entity that the humans have created. </p><p></p><p>If you really want to capture a medieval feel to the households, you need to consider that the aristocratic lords by and large live very much like the servants. They just don't <em>work</em> very much like the servants. But the Lord's manorhouse is likely to be simply a larger version of the wattle and dung, wood framed house that the peasants live in, possibly just the equivalent of three or four such houses built together, or with actual second (or third) floors rather than just lofts. The lord is likely to be wearing pretty much the same clothing as a peasant, with the addition of some color and perhaps some fur trim. He's going to be distinguished principally by the fact that he can change his clothes more than once a week. The household outside the Lord's bed chamber is likely to be just as crowded as thier peasant neighbors. The cook and scullions are sleeping in the kitchen. The servants are sleeping in the hall outside the bedchamber. The maids are sleeping in the common room, and thier is probably a boy sleeping in the kennel with the dogs and another one sleeping in the stables with the horses. All these servants, the families children, constitute 'the household' and are probably for the most part drawn from the tenant families that actually work the Lord's land.</p><p></p><p>The Lord is himself at this level really little more than some other greater lord's servant in some capacity. It's quite possible that if the Lord is at times sleeping in the hall of some greater lord's manor, being the Chamberlain, or the Butler, or the Huntsman or Master of the Hounds or whatever there (of course, with the addition of a staff that he oversees because it is a greater wealthier household). And when he is not, he's probably sub-contracting the job out to some nephew or cousin or some other trusted younger kinsman - probably one that doesn't stand to inherit land or manors of his own. Or else, one that doesn't stand to inherit enough land to pay for the upkeep of the manor he stands to inherit.</p><p></p><p>However, the medieval aristocracy is principally all about one thing - mounted soldiers. Most of these noble households are going to be knights, and there job isn't going to be running the bureaucracy of some greater lord, its going to be showing up to fight. That's going to be less true of the city than the countryside, where some many of the lords are going to be civil servants of some sort (and you think tenure in government jobs is a big problem now), but its still likely the case. The long and short of this is that the noblity on average actually end up living shorter and more brutal lives than most of the peasants. Thier standard of living isn't necessarily appreciably better than the peasants, and they spend alot of time going around killing each other or getting killed while training to kill each other. The only time its really good to be a noble is during a famine, because you own weapons and the peasants don't. Otherwise, your wealthier peasants, even if in the eyes of the law they are 'slaves', are likely to be better off than the nobility. In the towns, this is especially true, because the townsfolk are free, and busy forming political entities of thier own.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4059784, member: 4937"] Yes, absolutely. It challenged my assumptions that I was playing a very realistic game, and made me think seriously about what I had been doing. That's always a good thing. I don't think you quite get the same rich texture to your world, even if you in practice end up handwaving away demographics, if you don't consider your demographics. It is very much going to depend on what period you are actually simulating. Most D&D campaigns I'm aware of much more closely resemble the early modern period in fashion, style, architecture, city life, and so forth than they do the medieval - much less the early medieval. And, if your campaign is anything like mine, the local 'tech level' can vary somewhat widely especially in what we might call 'social technology'. Make sure you are getting the feel that you want and asking the right questions. For example, the medieval demographic pattern is actually based on the assumption of settlement before grain fed horses become the default means of providing animal power. The medieval countryside is laid out according to the needs of an ox cart. The reasonable daily round trip for an ox cart is only about 8 miles, which means that villages tend to be small and quite closely spaced (3-4 miles apart) so that commerce can flow between them. It's quite reasonable to assume that the area was settled at a time when everyone was using grainfed horses pulling wagons, and consolidate every 6 or so small villages into a single larger village (nearly a town) of 300-400 inhabitants spaced every 10 miles or so apart. This is what I do principally because its makes mapping a whole lot easier. Another thing to consider is that the real medievals were living pretty much alone. I use Ross's demographic numbers not to give the population of the kingdom, but instead to give the total population of sentient beings living in the area of the kingdom. Not all of them need be human or even give fealty to or recognize the existance of the political entity that the humans have created. If you really want to capture a medieval feel to the households, you need to consider that the aristocratic lords by and large live very much like the servants. They just don't [i]work[/i] very much like the servants. But the Lord's manorhouse is likely to be simply a larger version of the wattle and dung, wood framed house that the peasants live in, possibly just the equivalent of three or four such houses built together, or with actual second (or third) floors rather than just lofts. The lord is likely to be wearing pretty much the same clothing as a peasant, with the addition of some color and perhaps some fur trim. He's going to be distinguished principally by the fact that he can change his clothes more than once a week. The household outside the Lord's bed chamber is likely to be just as crowded as thier peasant neighbors. The cook and scullions are sleeping in the kitchen. The servants are sleeping in the hall outside the bedchamber. The maids are sleeping in the common room, and thier is probably a boy sleeping in the kennel with the dogs and another one sleeping in the stables with the horses. All these servants, the families children, constitute 'the household' and are probably for the most part drawn from the tenant families that actually work the Lord's land. The Lord is himself at this level really little more than some other greater lord's servant in some capacity. It's quite possible that if the Lord is at times sleeping in the hall of some greater lord's manor, being the Chamberlain, or the Butler, or the Huntsman or Master of the Hounds or whatever there (of course, with the addition of a staff that he oversees because it is a greater wealthier household). And when he is not, he's probably sub-contracting the job out to some nephew or cousin or some other trusted younger kinsman - probably one that doesn't stand to inherit land or manors of his own. Or else, one that doesn't stand to inherit enough land to pay for the upkeep of the manor he stands to inherit. However, the medieval aristocracy is principally all about one thing - mounted soldiers. Most of these noble households are going to be knights, and there job isn't going to be running the bureaucracy of some greater lord, its going to be showing up to fight. That's going to be less true of the city than the countryside, where some many of the lords are going to be civil servants of some sort (and you think tenure in government jobs is a big problem now), but its still likely the case. The long and short of this is that the noblity on average actually end up living shorter and more brutal lives than most of the peasants. Thier standard of living isn't necessarily appreciably better than the peasants, and they spend alot of time going around killing each other or getting killed while training to kill each other. The only time its really good to be a noble is during a famine, because you own weapons and the peasants don't. Otherwise, your wealthier peasants, even if in the eyes of the law they are 'slaves', are likely to be better off than the nobility. In the towns, this is especially true, because the townsfolk are free, and busy forming political entities of thier own. [/QUOTE]
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