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<blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 4979919" data-attributes="member: 51942">The problem lies not with the classes alone, but with the interaction between those classes and the ability raises.&nbsp; I'd argue that the fundamental problem is not the class design, it's the diverging stat bonuses.&nbsp; To put it another way: that any fix that does not start with an adjustment to the ability modifier divergence or to the base rules that the ability modifiers rely upon is inherently a wrong design change <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.In any case, builds that &quot;share&quot; stats start off at a disadvantage; and that's a viable choice - it's OK.&nbsp; What's not OK is that these effects become so overwhelming as the game progresses.On the topic of one-trick pony's...&nbsp; Personally, I don't see the attraction in playing one trick pony's in the first place.&nbsp; But some of my players do.&nbsp; They'll come up with amusing builds with odd tricks, and bore of them quickly, and then switch character (though, this hasn't been much of a problem in 4e yet, to be honest).&nbsp; These PC's are generally not problematic in actual game-play.&nbsp; They're usually quite fun and spicy precisely because they're not ordinary and not bland.&nbsp; I think maybe we're not talking about the same thing here - I'm not talking about rule-bending cheese (maxed out to-hit with storm of blades, orbizards that make saving virtually impossible).&nbsp; I'm talking about focused characters that know what they're good at.&nbsp;An 18 is the default stat distribution of any auto-built character builder character.&nbsp; It's hardly a one-trick pony, rather, it ensures that at the very least, the character will not be terrible at hitting.&nbsp; It does not much impact your FRW defenses.&nbsp; Rather, a character with an 18 tends to be less one-sided than others: If you're into char-op, raising a few other stats for specific feats' prereqs may be wise, but a basic 18 character won't have access to a few specialized feats (e.g. polearm gamble in heroic tier).&nbsp; Really, as long as it's not disrupting gameplay, what business does a DM have micromanaging the PC's choices like that?&nbsp; And really, a stat distribution is like the least disrupting game element I can imagine in 4e.&nbsp; We're not talking about a barbarian with iron armbands and a bloodclaw weapon abusing storm of blades here...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="eamon, post: 4979919, member: 51942"] The problem lies not with the classes alone, but with the interaction between those classes and the ability raises. I'd argue that the fundamental problem is [I]not[/I] the class design, it's the diverging stat bonuses. To put it another way: that any fix that does not start with an adjustment to the ability modifier divergence or to the base rules that the ability modifiers rely upon is inherently a wrong design change :). In any case, builds that "share" stats start off at a disadvantage; and that's a viable choice - it's OK. What's not OK is that these effects become so overwhelming as the game progresses. [I]On the topic of one-trick pony's...[/I] Personally, I don't see the attraction in playing one trick pony's in the first place. But some of my players do. They'll come up with amusing builds with odd tricks, and bore of them quickly, and then switch character (though, this hasn't been much of a problem in 4e yet, to be honest). These PC's are generally not problematic in actual game-play. They're usually quite fun and spicy precisely because they're not ordinary and not bland. I think maybe we're not talking about the same thing here - I'm not talking about rule-bending cheese (maxed out to-hit with storm of blades, orbizards that make saving virtually impossible). I'm talking about focused characters that know what they're good at. An 18 is the default stat distribution of any auto-built character builder character. It's hardly a one-trick pony, rather, it ensures that at the very least, the character will not be terrible at hitting. It does not much impact your FRW defenses. Rather, a character with an 18 tends to be [I]less[/I] one-sided than others: If you're into char-op, raising a few other stats for specific feats' prereqs may be wise, but a basic 18 character won't have access to a few specialized feats (e.g. polearm gamble in heroic tier). Really, as long as it's not disrupting gameplay, what business does a DM have micromanaging the PC's choices like that? And really, a stat distribution is like the least disrupting game element I can imagine in 4e. We're not talking about a barbarian with iron armbands and a bloodclaw weapon abusing storm of blades here... [/QUOTE]

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