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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CovertOps" data-source="post: 4981401" data-attributes="member: 65152">Quick math review:Level 1-30 monsters gain +29 to everything.PCs:+15 from 1/2 Level+6 from magic (weapon, armor, neck)+4/+1 from stat bumpsAssuming that you used the 16/16 starting array and had a 12 in your off FRW defense you'd look something like this at level 1:Fort: 10 base +3 (stat) +1 (class feature) = 14  (assumed primary stat STR/CON)Ref:  10 base +3 (stat) = 13                           (assumed secondary stat INT/DEX)Will:  10 base +1 (stat) = 11Also increase 2 (or 1) of those by 1 point for racial stat bump.At level 30:Fort: 10 base +3 (stat) +1 (class feature) +6 (enhancement) +4 (level stat bumps) +15 (1/2 level) = 39Ref:  10 base +3 (stat) +6 (enhancement) +4 (level stat bumps) +15 (1/2 level) = 38Will:  10 base +1 (stat) +6 (enhancement) +1 (level stat bumps) +15 (1/2 level) = 33Fort:  39 - 14 = 25Ref:   38 - 13 = 25Will:   33 - 11 = 22Comparing those differences you lose 4 points (20%) on your primary/secondary stat defenses and 7 points (35%) on your tertiary.  Assuming no feats and the 5/15/25 bonus applied to those you wind up only off by 1/1/4.  So your lowest defense starts out at 3 points below at level 1 (14 - 11 = 3) and by level 30 has lost 4 more points so is now STILL 7 points (35%) below what it should be (roughly).  If you don't give the house rule then you're down by 10 points (50%) and have access to +2 each from heroic and +4 more from epic feats for a total of +6 which still puts you down by 20% at level 30 which is still a 1 point loss compared to level 1.Now...either the loss of ground on defenses vs. attacks is a feat tax on the players (have to keep your defenses up to keep pace with the monster's attack values) or the built in system is TOO good for your better defenses because if you have a 14 at level 1 and take the +2/+4 feat bonuses you'll wind up with (39 (above example) + 6 (feats) = 45 .... 45 (new level 30) - 14 (level 1) = 31 which is now 2 points ahead of the scale.For a system that was supposed to be designed to reduce swing and provide scalability at all levels they did a piss poor job.  Just for fun lets use one of their encounters from the book where they have 3 n+7 lurkers fighting the party.  I don't have a book with me, but for that defense that is 4 points low it just became auto-hit (1 excepted of course) because my lurkers have +7 above the party already and you're down 4 so that's +11.  According to their own encounter design groups you should be able to use n-4 all the way up to n+7 creatures against the party.  If attacks and defenses don't scale correctly (for both monsters and PCs) then this is an epic failure from WotC.  As it stands Stalker0 is suggesting in his anti-grind topic (and a good read it is too) you should never use Soldiers as their defenses are too high and you should never use monsters of higher level than the party.  All of these factors tell me that their design failed.  The only way to truly make what they wanted is if they had made the total of all bonuses be 1/2 level.  So for example all PCs would get +1/4 level to everything (skills, attacks, defenses) which would total +7 (28/4=7) with another +6 from enhancement which gives us 13.  The last 2 could be stat bumps and if you keep the +1 all at 11/21 then you'd only need 2 more, but you could do something like 5/15/25 bumps to 2 different stats and make an odd starting stat viable.  That however is a complete redesign of the system and won't happen outside of house rules and the like.The basic problem they have in the system is that PCs have variance among them of like +/- 2 and the level variance of monsters gives another +/- 4 (if you only use n-4 to n+4) and another +/- 2 for variation in monsters at a given level.  This is a total variation of +/- 8 which is too much for a d20 system to handle and you have this at level 1.  When you get to level 30 and add in the attack and defense variations (-2 AC, -4 Attack, primary/secondary FRW defense, and -7 tertiary FRW defense) you're now looking at +/- 9-12  (for purposes of my calculations I'm assuming a middle ground and - for example using the -7 FRW defense - taking half of the difference and calling it +/- 4).  I'm not sure I'd want to get rid of difference between PCs so let's keep the +/- 2 there and if we go with a total of +1/2 level for all bonuses then that goes down to +/- 2 and variation in monsters is another +/-2 for a total of +/- 6 which is manageable.  In order for this to work, however your leveling mechanics cannot deviate from this at all or you introduce another variance which again stresses the system.  The reason Stalker0's anti-grind works is because he is eliminating one of the variances (namely the +/- 4 from creature level).</blockquote>

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