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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4992588" data-attributes="member: 2011">You are forgetting that 3.5 had an additional correction factor pre-feats and pre-items that 4E does not have: Prestige Classes.Main Class, level 7, +5 good save, +2 bad save 1, +2 bad save 2Prestige Class level 8, +2 good save, +2 bad save 1, +0 bad save 2Bad Save 1 could be bumped up. In one level, they went from 5/2/2 (without stats) to 7/4/2. A couple of more Prestige Classes and all three could be decent. A couple of magic items and weak stats could be boosted. There were Wishes and magical books that could permanently boost stats even more.Additionally, 3.5 had all or nothing protection magic. Sure, the 40th level Red Dragon had a Frightful Presence DC 38, but PCs had more or less immunity to Fear effects up by the time they ran into that level Red Dragon.A Young Adult Red Dragon was CR 13 and had a DC 21 Frightful Presence. Level 13 PCs with NO assistance from ability scores or items or spells or prestige classes would be +4 with their worst save. Worst 3.5 saves would save 15% of the time straight up compared to worst NADs in 4E at level 13 (where even with boosts, PCs get hit 90% to 95% of the time).You don't see how the 4E math is broken even more than the 3.5 math in this regard?Compare this to 4E where outside of neck items (and PHB II), there are few feats and items that could help significantly.But the significant issues for 4E are:1) The best NAD (let alone the worst NAD) cannot be maintained in the original rules. Attacks increase 29, defenses increase 26.2) The best NAD gets hit ~50% to ~60% of the time at first level by same level foes.3) The worst NAD can be as much as 6 lower than the best NAD. So, it can be hit ~80% to ~90% of the time at first level by same level foes.3.5 has nothing on 4E with regard to brokeness of NADs/Saves.</blockquote>

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