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Message: <blockquote data-quote="n00bdragon" data-source="post: 6262676" data-attributes="member: 6689371">There's a logical way to solve this. Let's say Option X is something that people are claiming is so good that you can't not take it. Here are the possibilities:A. Option X is so good that it helps to balance out an otherwise underpowered character.B. Option X is so good that it makes a strong character even more overpowered.C. Option X is so good that it makes an underpowered character broken.D. The person is incorrect and Option X is not so powerful as to be mechanically essential to a character.If A is true then taking away Option X because it conflicts with someone's character concept is ridiculous. You're selfishly saying "Because I personally don't want this option, no one should be allowed to take it." Expertise: The problem most 4e people have with expertise isn't that you're allowed to take it but that you have to spend limited character resources to take it when you should just be given it for free. This is different from not wanting what expertise gives at all. They just don't feel they should pay for it. Cantrips: If Cantrips fall into this case there is always the fact that they are an option. If Ray of Frost does not fit with your character and you don't want it on your sheet by all means, don't take it. Your character will be worse off, sure, but that sort of seems to the point with the argument against Cantrips. They want their wizards worse off in the sense of at-will attacks. Please let me know if I'm misinterpreting this.If B is true then by all means. Option X is too strong and should go away. Expertise: With Expertise this is patently not the case. Expertise is a math fix. It was designed to be situation #1. Sure, you can play the game without. You can still succeed and win above level encounters. However adding expertise in general improves the play experience for everyone. Cantrips: With Cantrips this is has a hard time holding water. Without contriving situations which are terribly uncommon in actual games (like running out of ammo, something I have never seen happen outside of zombie survival RPGs in almost fifteen years of gaming) it's hard to imagine how cantrips like Ray of Frost could be considered overpowered. They are in most ways inferior to the weapons used by characters who can actually hit stuff. Not to mention there is the opportunity cost of a wizard taking damage spells in preference to Break-the-Game-Over-Your-Knee illusions, conjurations, enchantments and the like. You know, the good spells.If C were true you can apply the same logic as with B but instead of just removing it outright Option X ought to be replaced with something else. What that is isn't pertinent to this discussion so this possibility doesn't require much extra thought.If D were true then you could just laugh and ignore the person because they are wrong and no amount of ranting or "BUT IN MY GAME..." will make it true. Just let them be wrong in peace.</blockquote>

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