Non-conversion question

[Guang]

What would happen if I tried to play Swords and Wizardry complete (0e retroclone) with unconverted Pathfinder monsters? Would PCs be a different effective level against the monsters?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

They'd go splat. Pathfinder monsters have higher hit points and do more damage than 3E monsters which, in turn, had higher hit points and do more damage than OSR critters (including S&W) tend to.

Eyeball a few of the monsters that appear in both systems. My guess is you're looking at a single level difference at the lowest end and maybe up to five levels at the highest.

If you don't feel like converting all the monsters in an AP (which is what I'm guessing is the root of this question), I'd either use the S&W stats for all monsters that exist for it, look for an existing conversion (I bet they exist) or just start the AP with the characters at level 3 or so.

 

[Guang]

They'd go splat. Pathfinder monsters have higher hit points and do more damage than 3E monsters which, in turn, had higher hit points and do more damage than OSR critters (including S&W) tend to.

Eyeball a few of the monsters that appear in both systems. My guess is you're looking at a single level difference at the lowest end and maybe up to five levels at the highest.

Oh, excellent! Thank you! How would I go about figuring out the level difference? Straight 1-on-1 comparison of HP and damage? Same HP and damage equals same effective level?
Also, how far would 13th age style escalating combat die (second round of combat, PCs add +1 to attack rolls, third round +2, and so on up to +6)go towards lessening the level difference?

If you don't feel like converting all the monsters in an AP (which is what I'm guessing is the root of this question), I'd either use the S&W stats for all monsters that exist for it, look for an existing conversion (I bet they exist) or just start the AP with the characters at level 3 or so.

The root of the question is keeping things as open world and non-railroading as possible - I used an AP for an example because of the range of levels included. PF monsters are so pretty, but their combats and character creation are so glacially slow. I want everything available on the fly by flipping to the right page, not just stuff I've figured out in advance. So, yeah, basic laziness I guess, if you look at it from a certain angle

 

[trancejeremy]

I'd actually say that early on, they are fairly comparable. Only as the levels get higher, do they really become vastly differently. The big difference early on is the damage and the bonus hit points

For instance, the PF Ogre has 4 HD, AC17, and does 2d8+7 damage

The S&W Ogre has 4 HD, AC14 (should really be 15), and does 1d10+1

OTOH, you have the Otyugh, which is very similar

in PF, it's 6 HD, AC17, and does 1d8+4/1d6+2/1d6+2

in S&W, it's 6 HD, AC16 (really 17), and does 1d8/1d8/2-5

But at tenth level, things get way out of whack.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The escalation dice helps both sides equally. So they just splat faster.

And yes, I'd get identical monsters from each edition and compare total hit points and damage for each to estimate the level difference. Honestly, a good monster compendium like Monstrosities is your best bet here.

 

[Guang]

The escalation dice helps both sides equally. So they just splat faster.

Nope, in 13th age escalation is just for the PCs, not for monsters (except dragons). The idea is that heroes are rising to the occasion to change getting beaten into a beatdown. Kinda like in the movies.

And yes, I'd get identical monsters from each edition and compare total hit points and damage for each to estimate the level difference. Honestly, a good monster compendium like Monstrosities is your best bet here.

Very cool. I hope its just that easy - that OSR PCs can be properly challenged with lower level/lower CR PF monsters then would be normal for PF PCs
edit: tried writing out comparisons of identical monsters, but they seem to be less than identical. Also tried comparing monster creation rules between the two systems. This is really confusing.

But at tenth level, things get way out of whack.

Are you referring hit points and damage difference, or to more than that?

 

[Guang]

Thanks much, Whizbang and Jeremy. You've given me a lot to think about and try to tweak.
I'm going to look into scaling weapon damage for PCs, reducing monster AC over 20 to half PF normal, and using larger hit die for PCs. We'll see what sticks in my game.

Comparing high level monsters made things a lot clearer. Specifically PF Tarrasque and S&W monstrosities (great book, btw, thanks for the recommendation!) Demon Princess Teratashia. Starting with classic editions and bolting on extra parts as needed seems a lot easier than trying to simplify overly complex modern stuff.