Non-detection vs Scrying

[RigaMortus2]

This may be a silly question, but how does Non-detection work vs Scrying?

Here is the scenario...

Two PCs are being Scryed on at the same time. The are aware of it because the person doing the Scrying is speaking with them via Message spell.

PC1 decides to cast Non-detection on himself. Will it work once he is already being Scryed? Does the person doing the Scying then have to make the appropriate caster level check?

Assuming it works and the Scryer fails the check, what happens? It seems to me that, since Scry doesn't have a Target entry but has an Effect entry, the magical (scrying) sensor is still there, but perhaps the person with Non-detection becomes "invisible" to it. That is how I kinda see it working.

So then I wonder, if the magical sensor is still there, but can't "see" the person it was Scrying, does the magical sensor still follow the person as per the description of Scry?

Lastly, what happens when the Non-detection person enters within 10 feet of PC2 who is still being Scryed? Does the caster have to make another caster level check to see if he can see him?

The wording of Scry seems a little wonky to me because it doesn't have a Target entry, it has an Effect entry (magical sensor). However, in the description of Scry it specifically mentions If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. How can you have a subject if there is no Target?

 

[Jack Simth]

Most of such questions aren't specified in RAW. If you're the DM, make a call and move on. If you're not the DM, ask your DM (who should make a call and move on).

 

[Graf]

IRRC the "sensor" was a 3.0 convention.
3.5 doesn't have a sensor anymore, does it?

 

[Jack Simth]

IRRC the "sensor" was a 3.0 convention.
3.5 doesn't have a sensor anymore, does it?

It does:

Scrying

Divination (Scrying)
Level: Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M/DF, F
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: See text
Effect: Magical sensor
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.
Knowledge Will Save Modifier
None1 +10
Secondhand (you have heard of the subject) +5
Firsthand (you have met the subject) +0
Familiar (you know the subject well) –5
1 You must have some sort of connection to a creature you have no knowledge of.

Connection Will Save Modifier
Likeness or picture –2
Possession or garment –4
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. –10

If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and the subject’s immediate surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject). If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet.

As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.

If the save succeeds, you can’t attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours.

Arcane Material Component: The eye of a hawk, an eagle, or a roc, plus nitric acid, copper, and zinc.

Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard Focus: A mirror of finely wrought and highly polished silver costing not less than 1,000 gp. The mirror must be at least 2 feet by 4 feet.

Cleric Focus: A holy water font costing not less than 100 gp.

Druid Focus: A natural pool of water.

(Emphasis added)

 

[Sigurd]

I think its actually a game balance thing.

My guess would be that a successful nondetection would trump an existing scry session. Blink, no more, You were looking at me and I found your camera.

If you had an active nondetection when the wizard was casting scry then it would be far more vague and harder to read from the scryers end. I imagine its easier to achieve a local effect than a distance one.


s

 

[Graf]

Grrr. Thanks for pointing that out.

That’s irritating. IIRC (haven’t been doing well but anyway) in 3.0 the sensor was defined as being invisible (or wizards could see it? Something like that). So scrying was good for seeing people, but any decent arcanist would notice if they were on top of their game.
Now what the sensor is isn’t defined.
That’s less fun.

Personally I’d de-emphasize the sensor and allow non-detection to remove the character from view. Either create a fuzzy patch or have it function like invisibility.

nondetection is a fairly weak spell already. And scry is great so I’d be keen to make the weaker spell more boardly useful. But that’s not RAW of course.

 

[shilsen]

Grrr. Thanks for pointing that out.

That’s irritating. IIRC (haven’t been doing well but anyway) in 3.0 the sensor was defined as being invisible (or wizards could see it? Something like that). So scrying was good for seeing people, but any decent arcanist would notice if they were on top of their game.
Now what the sensor is isn’t defined.

The sensor is clearly defined. Read the section on Scrying under "Conjuration" on pg.173 of the 3.5 PHB.

 

[KarinsDad]

My take is that Nondetection does nothing in this case.

The target has already failed a Will save against the Scrying.

A Dispel Magic might work, but the Scrying magic is already affecting the target.

Nothing in the Nondetection description indicates that it is retroactive, in fact the wording in it discusses what happens if a creature already protected by Nondetection has a divination cast on him. My personal take is that if a spell does not state that it does xyz, then it does not. I tend to not extrapolate beyond what is actually written there. For example, Protection From Evil does state that it suppresses domination magic during its duration. Nondetection has no such language regarding divinations.


If a DM does rule that the Nondetection allows for a caster level check, then each individual Scry would need a different caster level check. The Nondetection target would be invisible to each sensor for which a caster level check was failed.

 

[RigaMortus2]

in fact the wording in it discusses what happens if a creature already protected by Nondetection has a divination cast on him.

But it wasn't "cast on him". He isn't the target of the spell, because the spell has no target. It doesn't even have an area effect. It has an effect "magical sensor". Although, the spell description does mention the "subject" of the spell. They could have simply added Target: see text.

I just think it is poorly worded.

 

[KarinsDad]

But it wasn't "cast on him". He isn't the target of the spell, because the spell has no target. It doesn't even have an area effect. It has an effect "magical sensor". Although, the spell description does mention the "subject" of the spell. They could have simply added Target: see text.

I just think it is poorly worded.

Actually for this question, it is Nondetection that is poorly worded.

However, the fact that Scrying does not say "Target: ..." does not change the fact that Nondetection discusses divinations attempted while warded, not necessarily attempted before being warded.