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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 9509759" data-attributes="member: 177">The beliefs of &quot;the Ancients&quot; are far more nuanced than simple correspondence to the four states of physical matter.&nbsp; We should resist imposing over-simplification, cherry-picking, or imposing frameworks upon them.As I've already noted - many peoples didn't work with 4 elements.&nbsp; They had 5.&nbsp; We ignore that 5th, and voila!&nbsp; It fits the correspondence to the four states of matter!&nbsp; We just lop off a portion of the system so it meets our desire for elegance or simplicity.It is important to note that these models are not strictly physical models of the universe.&nbsp; They include healthy doses of metaphor and what today we'd call &quot;magic&quot;.&nbsp; Those are intrinsic parts of the belief systems, and if we think of the elements without those, we misunderstand the system of thought and belief.For example, to the Greeks, there was more to it than just four elements.&nbsp; There were also &quot;sensible qualities&quot;.&nbsp; For Aristotle, those qualities were: hot, cold, wet, and dry.&nbsp; But for the Neoplatonists, there were six qualities - sharp, blunt, mobile, immobile, dense and subtle.Meanwhile when we look at the medical arts of the same ancients, we have the four humors model (yellow bile, black bile, blood, and phlegm).&nbsp; The humors were thought to be fluids in the body (though some are more notional than real), and are associated with different elements.&nbsp; Blood, for example is of the element of air, not water.Thus, things aren't as simple as all that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 9509759, member: 177"] The beliefs of "the Ancients" are far more nuanced than simple correspondence to the four states of physical matter. We should resist imposing over-simplification, cherry-picking, or imposing frameworks upon them. As I've already noted - many peoples didn't work with 4 elements. They had 5. We ignore that 5th, and voila! It fits the correspondence to the four states of matter! We just lop off a portion of the system so it meets our desire for elegance or simplicity. It is important to note that these models are [I]not strictly physical[/I] models of the universe. They include healthy doses of metaphor and what today we'd call "magic". Those are intrinsic parts of the belief systems, and if we think of the elements without those, we misunderstand the system of thought and belief. For example, to the Greeks, there was more to it than just four elements. There were also "sensible qualities". For Aristotle, those qualities were: hot, cold, wet, and dry. But for the Neoplatonists, there were six qualities - sharp, blunt, mobile, immobile, dense and subtle. Meanwhile when we look at the medical arts of the same ancients, we have the four humors model (yellow bile, black bile, blood, and phlegm). The humors were thought to be fluids in the body (though some are more notional than real), and are associated with different elements. Blood, for example is of the element of air, not water. Thus, things aren't as simple as all that. [/QUOTE]

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