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<blockquote data-quote="Tellerve" data-source="post: 1172905" data-attributes="member: 2412">Ok first off I just wanna say how this struck me as kinda funny considering your &quot;brawler&quot; build is pretty much a &quot;best-case&quot; for knocking people out.&nbsp; One of the things Psion has been saying is that he wants more normal people to be able to knock people out.&nbsp; Although as someone noted it was possible with a 1d3+2 crit for max damage to force a knock out.Some more generalized concerns/gripes/thoughts I have on the non-lethal.&nbsp; You mentioned that it is really easy to make the Fort DC 20 saves to resist loosing hitpoints when your at -1.&nbsp; Then wouldn't that fort dc 15 to resist getting knocked out be just really easy?I also really don't like the fact that they made brawl and combat martial arts different.&nbsp; It would appear you would agree, although you don't say so, when you say that being able to knock people out without harming them requires more skill.&nbsp; But by d20 modern has a nonlethal combat master, &quot;brawler&quot; is better at hitting and doing more damage.&nbsp; I just think what they should have done is this, make a martial art feat and that's it.&nbsp; Make it be brawling, jujitsu, kung fu, arnis, whatever...you learn to hit and hurt people.By making brawl the requisite for knock out you can't have your &quot;ninja&quot; spy guy who is all combat martial arted up get it without brawl, which gives no synergy and doesn't help damage...not well thought out IMO.The brass knuckles thing is I think fine as written, assuming my other annoyances with Brawl.&nbsp; The, ohh it is lethal now and you do less (1d3 vs 1d6) is just silly.Finally a question about your unconsious character.&nbsp; Maybe I misread but I thought you said something about an unconsious character being at -1.&nbsp; However, considering what is said on page 141 about going unconsious for 1d4+1 rounds after failing that tiny DC 15 fort save you wake up.&nbsp; So I'm not sure how your dude gets knocked on the head and goes to -1.&nbsp; That doesn't happen as far as I can tell, he just goes unconsious, but retains his hps.eh, those are some thoughtsTellerve</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tellerve, post: 1172905, member: 2412"] Ok first off I just wanna say how this struck me as kinda funny considering your "brawler" build is pretty much a "best-case" for knocking people out. One of the things Psion has been saying is that he wants more normal people to be able to knock people out. Although as someone noted it was possible with a 1d3+2 crit for max damage to force a knock out. Some more generalized concerns/gripes/thoughts I have on the non-lethal. You mentioned that it is really easy to make the Fort DC 20 saves to resist loosing hitpoints when your at -1. Then wouldn't that fort dc 15 to resist getting knocked out be just really easy? I also really don't like the fact that they made brawl and combat martial arts different. It would appear you would agree, although you don't say so, when you say that being able to knock people out without harming them requires more skill. But by d20 modern has a nonlethal combat master, "brawler" is better at hitting and doing more damage. I just think what they should have done is this, make a martial art feat and that's it. Make it be brawling, jujitsu, kung fu, arnis, whatever...you learn to hit and hurt people. By making brawl the requisite for knock out you can't have your "ninja" spy guy who is all combat martial arted up get it without brawl, which gives no synergy and doesn't help damage...not well thought out IMO. The brass knuckles thing is I think fine as written, assuming my other annoyances with Brawl. The, ohh it is lethal now and you do less (1d3 vs 1d6) is just silly. Finally a question about your unconsious character. Maybe I misread but I thought you said something about an unconsious character being at -1. However, considering what is said on page 141 about going unconsious for 1d4+1 rounds after failing that tiny DC 15 fort save you wake up. So I'm not sure how your dude gets knocked on the head and goes to -1. That doesn't happen as far as I can tell, he just goes unconsious, but retains his hps. eh, those are some thoughts Tellerve [/QUOTE]

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