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<blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1173130" data-attributes="member: 5171">Well, that wasn't my reply to Psion.&nbsp; That was my reply to the guy who said &quot;It's so hard to knock people out.&quot;&nbsp; I showed that it was possible to build a third-level character who forces a save at least 50% of the time he hits a standard array character.That said, if he could do this and still be great at other things, he'd be wildly overpowered.&nbsp; I believe that a third-level character should not be a master ninja.&nbsp; He should not be particularly good at combat, unless that's what he has specialized in to the exclusion of other areas.Psion and I hashed, rehashed, and eventually dehashed the &quot;kids fighting in schoolyard&quot; idea.&nbsp; Normal people can knock each other out.&nbsp; They just can't do it safely, and they can't do it easily barehanded.Side note: I just watched Fred, a nonfighting person on Angel, knock somebody out with one shot.&nbsp; She did it by getting him to turn his back, and then she clocked him with a lamp.&nbsp; Somebody's gotta start an improvised weapons thread, where we can hash this stuff out.It's easy(ish) to make a DC20 Fort save when you have nine tries to do so.&nbsp; It's hard to make a DC15 Fort save over and over again when one single failure takes you down.&nbsp; Statistics.Ditto.&nbsp; Massive Ditto.&nbsp; Heck, I wished they'd just called it &quot;Unarmed Fighting&quot;, so that people who wanted to be barroon bruisers but didn't want the Martial Artist imagery of pajamas and bowing wouldn't feel compelled to get Brawl instead -- which doesn't really do what it says it does.Nonlethal Expertise is a great idea, but it's got all the wrong flavor text for what it actually does.&nbsp; I tend to go with the mechanic and rewrite the flavor text to make it more appealing (like when I rewrote my barbarian's flavor text so that his &quot;rages&quot; were actually episodes of him channeling the power of his ancestors -- he was a peaceful, contemplative nomad who only wished to defend his people).Either you misread or I miswrote.&nbsp; When you come out of unconsciousness due to nonlethal damage, you're fine.&nbsp; You never take lethal damage from a nonlethal attack.&nbsp; Sorry if I wrote something ambiguous.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="takyris, post: 1173130, member: 5171"] Well, that wasn't my reply to Psion. That was my reply to the guy who said "It's so hard to knock people out." I showed that it was possible to build a third-level character who forces a save at least 50% of the time he hits a standard array character. That said, if he could do this and still be great at other things, he'd be wildly overpowered. I believe that a third-level character should not be a master ninja. He should not be particularly good at combat, unless that's what he has specialized in to the exclusion of other areas. Psion and I hashed, rehashed, and eventually dehashed the "kids fighting in schoolyard" idea. Normal people [b]can[/b] knock each other out. They just can't do it safely, and they can't do it easily barehanded. Side note: I just watched Fred, a nonfighting person on Angel, knock somebody out with one shot. She did it by getting him to turn his back, and then she clocked him with a lamp. Somebody's gotta start an improvised weapons thread, where we can hash this stuff out. It's easy(ish) to make a DC20 Fort save when you have nine tries to do so. It's hard to make a DC15 Fort save over and over again when one single failure takes you down. Statistics. Ditto. Massive Ditto. Heck, I wished they'd just called it "Unarmed Fighting", so that people who wanted to be barroon bruisers but didn't want the Martial Artist imagery of pajamas and bowing wouldn't feel compelled to get Brawl instead -- which doesn't really do what it says it does. Nonlethal Expertise is a great idea, but it's got all the wrong flavor text for what it actually does. I tend to go with the mechanic and rewrite the flavor text to make it more appealing (like when I rewrote my barbarian's flavor text so that his "rages" were actually episodes of him channeling the power of his ancestors -- he was a peaceful, contemplative nomad who only wished to defend his people). Either you misread or I miswrote. When you come out of unconsciousness due to nonlethal damage, you're fine. You never take lethal damage from a nonlethal attack. Sorry if I wrote something ambiguous. [/QUOTE]

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