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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 924422" data-attributes="member: 5171">Psion: Interesting point.  I hadn't considered that sort of hybrid, and that wasn't what I was arguing against.  I'm arguing against replacing Nonlethal Damage completely with Subdual.  I suspect that giving Subdual damage the (Con) threshold of Nonlethal would work to a point, although as a GM I'd watch it carefully.  I'll note the reasons why below.Okay, so you are concerned that it doesn't happen enough.  I'm not sure exactly where to go here.1) I just did it with a fourth level character.  Yeah, he's a fourth-level character who's tricked out with all the right feats, but still, level four, and he can at least force a save on any human he can hit (barring Heroic Tough characters who have upped their damage thresholds).  A level 20 Smart/Charismatic hero is in serious trouble when put against this guy.  (hyperbole, yes, but not as much as you'd think -- without threshold-boosters, this guy can force a save with almost every hit against someone with a Con of 11 or 12.)2) There are other options.  For example, you can take exotic weapon proficiency in the three-section staff, which does 1d10 damage, and accept a -4 penalty to hit.  You can Power Attack with a tonfa, which doesn't take that -4 to hit (although in all other respects, it's a pretty sad excuse for a weapon).  An Investigator character doesn't take the -4 penalty when doing Nonlethal damage, so he could conceivably whack on somebody with a claymore and still just be knocking them out.  3) In my opinion, and this is strictly my opinion and open for interpretation and disagreement and questions as to the sexual proclivities of my ancestors, the Nonlethal rules were an attempt to create one-shot knockout potential without making that knockout potential overwhelming.  After all, a game in which everyone does NOTHING but knock each other out, because it's too easy to do so, is not much fun.  I believe (and again, opinion), that it IS easy to get the feats necessary to make Nonlethal stuff effective.  I also believe that it's not TOO easy.  I don't think it should be a viable option for everybody -- it's not realistic to knock someone out with no chance of permanent damage, so the ability to do so should require training.  You have to either have feats that help you do so, have a weapon designed to do so, or be a good enough fighter to take penalties and still hit people (-4 for nonlethal, -x for Power Attack)...Again, didn't notice this aspect of your argument before.My concerns with mixing the rules is that there are only a few monster types that are NOT vulnerable to subdual damage.  Giving characters the ability to whittle someone down with subdual AND potentially knock them out instantly seems too powerful, and stands near to replacing normal damage completely.  I also think that Brawl and its older brothers are too powerful to be used with Subdual damage.Not a non-sequitor.  That argument is the argument made most of the time by the "Nonlethal damage is stupid" crowd.  I'm not saying that YOU said it.  I'm saying that it gets said by people in general a lot, and it's stupid.On the other hand, I don't disagree with what you're saying.  I do disagree with how you perceive what you're saying as applying to the rules.  I assert that "Lethal Damage" is not as lethal as people think it is.  If there is a problem with the Lethal/Nonlethal system in d20 Modern, it is that the system has been misnamed so badly that people associate the wrong kind of flavor text with it.  Using Lethal damage does not mean that you're trying to kill someone.  It means that you're trying to knock them out through ACTUAL injury, as opposed to trying to knock them out with a pressure-point strike that has no long-term consequences (ie, a tap to the temple or chin).So my argument would be that, for what you're saying, the type of damage that d20M calls "Lethal" damage would work fine -- the two people are actually trying to hurt each other enough to make the other guy stop.  It's not lethal, because as soon as one guy is really hurt at all (ie, down to <3 hit points, whatever), the fight ends.  If one of them went into the negatives, the common result would be for someone to check them and make sure that they were alright.  Or to put it another way -- what scenario can you NOT create using d20 modern rules?"Can't create two untrained people wearing each other down." -- They use lethal damage, and stop once someone has taken a real hit.  Blame the names, but Nonlethal damage is not designed for use by the untrained.  It's not what people think it is.  It's not a substitute for Subdual damage.  It's part of a new rules system that uses a mechanic other than Subdual damage.Sure they can.  That's 3 points of lethal damage to a character with 6 total hit points.  It's lethal because the nose is broken, not bloody -- a bloody nose hurts, but doesn't knock you out of a fight.  A broken nose can hurt enough to actually impair your ability to fight.  The guy whose nose just got broken is stumbling in pain, half-blind, and he's so off-balance that the next punch that lands is likely to put him down for the count.  In other words, he doesn't have very many hit points left.For low-level untrained folks, Lethal damage is an actual punch, kick, elbow, whatever.  Nonlethal damage from two level-1 Charismatic heroes with no combat feats or occupational abilities can best be flavor-texted as a slapfight.</blockquote>

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