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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Psion" data-source="post: 925362" data-attributes="member: 172">Well, that should allay some of our differences.But still, I see that as a problem. I don't want to have to be a Mike Tyson or Bruce Li in training to have a credible chance of having a bona fide impact on my opponent through fisticufs.This, again, relies on taking feats and using weapons. My primary concern is fisticufs, something that does come up a lot in action movies. I am not especially concerned about nonlethal weapon damage, but that said, I certainly don't think that it unbalances weapons.I'm not sure why this is a problem. If you try to duke it out with a zombie, you are asking for trouble.That is certainly something worth considering. The brawl family is designed with the nonlethal combat rules in mind. Fidgeting with the nonlethal combat rules would likely entail altering the effects of brawl.That said, brass knuckles turn nonlethal damage into lethal, so if giving brawlers subdual damage is a balance issue, then brass knuckles are a bigger one. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I think you are trying to make nonsensical rules sensible through spinning them. Let's just say I don't agree with you assessment and don't think that lethal/nonlethal damage puts near that much of a fine point on it. The d20 rules are rather binary in their division between lethal and nonlethal damage. In reality, it is more of a continuum. You can sort of try to capture this middle ground in a game, but take it from me, it's not easy, and dividing lethal vs. nonlethal along the lines of armed/sharp/hard and soft/unarmed is the one most games use, d20 included.Ah, I see where you are getting here. You are talking about using the -4 to do lethal damage. Yes, there is that. However, this doesn't sit well with the simulationist in my. You don't specifically try to break someone's nose vice blood it, and it seems to me that the type of blow that would be a knockout punch would be the same kind of blow that would be the kind that would break someone's nose.The "lethal damge" rules for unarmed combat strikes me as things like kidney punches and kicking character while he's down. As the d20 rules say, inflicting lethal damage unarmed is "aiming for vital spots."</blockquote>

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