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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6680169" data-attributes="member: 6669384">Celebrim:&nbsp; I always considered &quot;flint&quot; to mean exactly that, in that a flintlock doesn't work with just any stone.&nbsp; I have, however, obviously conflated the actual mineral with the &quot;mental match&quot; compound sold in camping stores as &quot;flint&quot;.&nbsp; That stuff is magnesium.&nbsp; My mistake.Yes, the striking action converts impact to heat.&nbsp; It doesn't melt the iron though, it burns it.&nbsp; Sparks but no droplets of molten iron.To light wood with flint and steel, start with wood shavings or a &quot;fuzz stick&quot; (dry stick dressed with a knife to have shavings that are still attached.)The reference to the demonstrator using char-cloth was to show that it doesn't take &quot;several minutes&quot; to start a fire with flint and steel, just the right materials.&nbsp; D&amp;D and AD&amp;D used to include &quot;tinder box&quot; with flint and steel fire starting gear.&nbsp; That refers to the &quot;right material&quot; in a container that keeps it dry.As for sparks and lethal damage:&nbsp; You're right, D&amp;D doesn't have fractional hit point damage ranges.&nbsp; Consider Tinder as dry material with a zero hardness v fire.&nbsp; That makes it possible to light with sparks, if you hit the tinder with enough.&nbsp; But I'll stick to my guns (flintlocks though they be) when I say sparks have to be counted as &quot;lethal&quot; damage.&nbsp; The rule may not have a fine enough granularity to account for minute effects like sparks, but they're pretty clear that inanimate objects aren't affected by non-lethal damage.&nbsp; Regarding flash-bangs:&nbsp; The effect is sonic/concussive, as well as dazzling bright light.&nbsp; If you're holding the thing, yes it will hurt.&nbsp; Can a TASER kill?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; So can a toothpick.&nbsp; The effect is, by and large, a disruption of the nervous system, and leaves no lasting wound.&nbsp; Repeated hits can do more, but we're talking a comparison of effects.&nbsp; (I have a friend who used to run with drug dealers.&nbsp; His &quot;friends&quot; obtained high end stun-guns and literally TASERed him to death during horseplay.&nbsp; Stopped his heart.&nbsp; And, if the story is true, they then used the stun guns to get his heart started again.&nbsp; )I could go on to compare hypothermic shock, such as plunging into an icy river, to a non-lethal cold attack (no actual frostbite, and if pulled from the river and left in a warm area the victim will recover in a few hours.)&nbsp; I could come up with similar examples for other energy types as well, and someone else could nit-pick any of them.&nbsp; They are just comparison examples though.While some will say that all injury is &quot;lethal&quot; and others will say that almost none of our real world injuries qualify, the fact is that the real world doesn't have the hard division that the game world has to.&nbsp; AD&amp;D didn't have any way to do non-lethal damage.&nbsp; To knock someone out you had to do real damage enough that they were dying.&nbsp; If that was the case in the real world then there is no reason for the 10 count in Boxing.&nbsp; If they're down like that, they're either dead or dying, and aren't going to wake up and continue fighting in ten seconds or ten minutes.&nbsp; (Note that by the &quot;standard&quot; rules, people died when their HP hit zero.&nbsp; The -10 range was an optional rule.&nbsp; )Delericho:&nbsp; I always considered the &quot;melt soft metals&quot; part of the Fireball description as simply explaining the effects of the damage on a lump of metal.I mean, you can't &quot;burn&quot; gold, and it isn't going to thermal-fracture and shatter or crumble.&nbsp; So how else could it take/show damage, other than to melt?And since non-lethal damage can't affect inanimate objects, a non-lethal fireball couldn't melt gold or silver.I'm a rules guy, RAW whenever possible, for many of the same reasons you are.&nbsp; RAW says that non-lethal effects don't affect inanimate objects, so you can leave out lighting things on fire or melting them and still be within RAW. So how does it work?&nbsp; Maybe it hits like a sudden bout of heat exhaustion, raising the body temperature enough to cause someone to pass out.&nbsp; Maybe it abruptly deprives them of oxygen.&nbsp; Maybe all of them simply induce a &quot;state of shock&quot;, which in the clinical sense means a sudden drop in blood pressure that can cause fainting.Maybe it's just magic.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 6680169, member: 6669384"] Celebrim: I always considered "flint" to mean exactly that, in that a flintlock doesn't work with just any stone. I have, however, obviously conflated the actual mineral with the "mental match" compound sold in camping stores as "flint". That stuff is magnesium. My mistake. Yes, the striking action converts impact to heat. It doesn't melt the iron though, it burns it. Sparks but no droplets of molten iron. To light wood with flint and steel, start with wood shavings or a "fuzz stick" (dry stick dressed with a knife to have shavings that are still attached.) The reference to the demonstrator using char-cloth was to show that it doesn't take "several minutes" to start a fire with flint and steel, just the right materials. D&D and AD&D used to include "tinder box" with flint and steel fire starting gear. That refers to the "right material" in a container that keeps it dry. As for sparks and lethal damage: You're right, D&D doesn't have fractional hit point damage ranges. Consider Tinder as dry material with a zero hardness v fire. That makes it possible to light with sparks, if you hit the tinder with enough. But I'll stick to my guns (flintlocks though they be) when I say sparks have to be counted as "lethal" damage. The rule may not have a fine enough granularity to account for minute effects like sparks, but they're pretty clear that inanimate objects aren't affected by non-lethal damage. Regarding flash-bangs: The effect is sonic/concussive, as well as dazzling bright light. If you're holding the thing, yes it will hurt. Can a TASER kill? Yes. So can a toothpick. The effect is, by and large, a disruption of the nervous system, and leaves no lasting wound. Repeated hits can do more, but we're talking a comparison of effects. (I have a friend who used to run with drug dealers. His "friends" obtained high end stun-guns and literally TASERed him to death during horseplay. Stopped his heart. And, if the story is true, they then used the stun guns to get his heart started again. ) I could go on to compare hypothermic shock, such as plunging into an icy river, to a non-lethal cold attack (no actual frostbite, and if pulled from the river and left in a warm area the victim will recover in a few hours.) I could come up with similar examples for other energy types as well, and someone else could nit-pick any of them. They are just comparison examples though. While some will say that all injury is "lethal" and others will say that almost none of our real world injuries qualify, the fact is that the real world doesn't have the hard division that the game world has to. AD&D didn't have any way to do non-lethal damage. To knock someone out you had to do real damage enough that they were dying. If that was the case in the real world then there is no reason for the 10 count in Boxing. If they're down like that, they're either dead or dying, and aren't going to wake up and continue fighting in ten seconds or ten minutes. (Note that by the "standard" rules, people died when their HP hit zero. The -10 range was an optional rule. ) Delericho: I always considered the "melt soft metals" part of the Fireball description as simply explaining the effects of the damage on a lump of metal. I mean, you can't "burn" gold, and it isn't going to thermal-fracture and shatter or crumble. So how else could it take/show damage, other than to melt? And since non-lethal damage can't affect inanimate objects, a non-lethal fireball couldn't melt gold or silver. I'm a rules guy, RAW whenever possible, for many of the same reasons you are. RAW says that non-lethal effects don't affect inanimate objects, so you can leave out lighting things on fire or melting them and still be within RAW. So how does it work? Maybe it hits like a sudden bout of heat exhaustion, raising the body temperature enough to cause someone to pass out. Maybe it abruptly deprives them of oxygen. Maybe all of them simply induce a "state of shock", which in the clinical sense means a sudden drop in blood pressure that can cause fainting. Maybe it's just magic. [/QUOTE]

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